so in the third movie jigsaw says that he doesn't condone murder and that he hates muderers (spelling?). If this is so, why was Dr.Gordons task to kill adam? Im pretty sure that is condoning murder. Now dont get me wrong i love the saw films. I love the meaning they have, i love the characters, i love tobin bell, but this seems like a mistake in the writing. I find it intersting.

For some people there is no other way. Usually it is because there's always some glutton who will be there to pick someone up when they trip up and fall on their @$$. I know a few people in my life that jigsaw could have had quite a positive impact on. Nothing they do is illegal, it just hurts a lot of good people associated with them. Playing games with peoples' emotions can sometimes be worse than breaking the law.
"GoodBadI'm the guy with the Gun" - Army of Darkness - Ash (Bruce Campbell)

^^Good point on Frank Castle, I never hear anyone call him the bad guy. He's always known as the antihero, the guy that takes matters into his own hands and avenges others.
"I am the ultimate badass, you do not wann1c84a *beep* wit' me!" Hudson in Aliens.

Did anyone ever take a moment to consider perhaps he's more neutral or anti-hero? Kinda like Frank Castle, AKA The Punisheralthough he kills mobsters, drug dealers, murderers, rapists, etc. There's a fine line between their works, but the stance of their life as it was is quite similar in the methods they take to accomplishing their goals.
"GoodBadI'm the guy with the Gun" - Army of Darkness - Ash (Bruce Campbell)

Hello,
I agree with what you said that by example in Saw 2 if that detective Matthews would have listen to what John Jigsaw said to him, to obey his rules, he (the detective) could have survived and not locked in that room where were also Jigsaw's victims from 1st part (Saw 1) and also his son as we can see in the final is released. But, no, this detective is obsessed by the thoughts that his son could die in that freaking house because Jigsaw know to play with all of them showing them that recorded tape (or tapes) where all the people from inside that house are killed or killed by themselves one by one till the last two Amanda and detective's son. So that's why detective Matthews is so convinced that his son is running the last moments in his life but actually his son is in one safe with the necessary oxygen allowed to live. Anyway, the procedures that are used by Jigsaw are pure and simple grotesque (remember the situations from Saw 1 and Saw 2?). And I could not agree by all means that Jigsaw is a good guy even if he lives an entirely drama and is living the last days from his life, having cancer. That's my opinion.
Nick

Yeah, maybe the way isn't the best to make people appreciate their lives, but just look in SAW II for example - IF detective Matthews would have listen and followed the Jigsaw's rules, everything would be okay, but - no, no one is ever listening to him. So - if they are so stupid, then they deserve to die! Jigsaw never wanted to kill someone, they killed themselves, so Jigsaw is the good guy!!! (And I'm not saying that, cause I like Tobin SO much, it just is that way).
Liva

Remember in the fight in "anchorman" its kinda like that.

i see your point here, but, there are many ways to help people honestly see the tru value of their life without making them go through monster traps that rip apart their jaws.

Amanda's psychotic change came from a number of choices.
Her first choice was to lead the lifestyle that lead to her being entrapped by Jigsaw
Her second choice was to gut the guy with the key in his stomach to live
Her third choice was to become Jigsaw's apprentice, and that was simply just what snapped her.
Every choice comes with a consequenceShe didn't have to be Jigsaw's apprentice, she could have just walked away. She said to the detectives he saved her life. If she honestly believed that she would have lived for better things than the drugs she had taken in her life.
"GoodBadI'm the guy with the Gun" - Army of Darkness - Ash (Bruce Campbell)

Exactly. It's his belief in that everything he does
is
right and justified, that makes him terrifying. And since he gets amusement and pleasure out of torturing "empty" people into "good" people, I completely disagree with this making him good. He has no good qualities whatsoever.

Personally, (and keep in mind I've only seen Saw II) But I kinda think that the best villians (and so as not to offend anybody he can be called the protagonist of the story (still pretty much means the same thing)), have just a little "good" to them. In the case of Jigsaw, it's his honest belief he's helping people. Though, I by no means agree or sympathise with what he did, it's his belief that makes him a more well-rounded character and utterly more terrifying.
" Theory! Don't give me Theory! I want some guarantees!" -Pendragon

coughs
"Not to mention he DID kill that guy with the key in his stomache, and he did kill the daughter of Jeff in the last movie, and 8 year old girl at that, yes this guy is no one to feel sorry for. "
Didn't you pay attention?! He DIDN'T kill the guy with the key in his stomach, just drugged him. He wakes up and moves slightly when Amanda is by him and she kills him by stabbing him and ripping his insides out.
He also didn't kill the daughter of Jeff, Saw III ended on a cliffhanger with the girl running out of oxygen in some room and Jeff having to play a game and find her.
Sorry, just had to correct that
As for sympathy for Jigsaw, although he may speak in a calm and concise manner and sound perfectably justified in what he's doing he's just a clever sociopath. He goes to such extremes to teach people appreciation of life that even if they did survive they'd end up psychologically traumatized. Amanda for example doesn't change, she still harms herself and is clearly too weak to handle the pressure of being Jigsaw's accomplice and goes completely insane.
Think of all the sick psycho/sociopaths in reality, that believed what they were doing was justified, do you have sympathy for them?
But seeming as it's just a movie, I suppose you can argue that he's just a frail old man that got a little confused on his path to teaching morality therefore you can feel a little sorry for him before he dies knowing all the hope and effort he put in changing someone failed.

I just read off of wikipedia, that a segment wasn't filmed into the movie, but it really accounts for John's feeling of remorse. Read, "For the first time, we actually see him break down and cry. Imagine your entire life's work. You're on your deathbed. You know there's nothing else you can do and here's how you'll be remembered: as a killer, as a murderer. Not as someone who helped people. Not as someone who changed lives. Someone who took away lives. The one thing he didn't want to be and, as he's on his deathbed, he's realizing this."
See, he even doubts he's a killer. However, none of you are the film's maker so HUSH UP and wait for the next installment to arrive before making stupid assumptions.

The law inforcement doesn't do anything worth doing anymore!!
T~O
I've never preferred perfect guys (Team Jacob)

The logic with which you argue entitles no man, law enforcement or not, to pass judgment on another human being. And such a system would be borderline anarchy if there were no punishments for crimes.
Now as far as Jigsaw's standards, the only people he took were those leading empty lives, double lives (cheating on spouses, etc.), criminals, and those that hurt others. He turned the tables o111cn them all and placed them in situations sadistically ironic to their own struggle in life and gives them a short period of time to make a choice, live or die. I wouldn't so much call it passing judgment as I would call it Jigsaw saying 'Hey, f^&* up, this is what you're doing wrong, so I'm going to help you do it right' Things get a little rocky but he ends up intertwining all of the subjects of his tests together and I think it's pretty cool how he does it.
"GoodBadI'm the guy with the Gun" - Army of Darkness - Ash (Bruce Campbell)

so jigsaws victims live below jigsaws standards and they must be taught a lesson, right? well who the hell is this guy to judge people he doesnt even know. how is their lifestyles affecting this old cancer patient? who thinks like that? jigsaw tries to justify his actions, saying he teaches the value of life. well it's not his job. thats not for him to decide. Am I right? Take the guy in saw 2 who was always in and out of jail for petty crimes. its not jigsaws job to teach him a lesson. thas law enforcements job.

Anyway, people are basically saying the ends justify the means. If it makes them a better person, you're all5b4owed to put them through inhumane, traumatic torture cells where they have to mutilate their bodies or other crap? That's the same as forcing change.
APPLAUDS YOU GREATLY. And that is exactly why Jigsaw is nothing but a sick, mindless, twisted freak of humanity. It is the only reason why I liked Saw 1 and 4 the best, because it is all about teaching people to respect their lives and not to keep abusing the second, third, etc. chances that life gives them. But no, the end DOES NOT justify the means.
I think Jigsaw is the most inherently evil character in modern cinema today. NO one ever hated people like Sauron, Saruman, Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, etc. etc.
Those people are actually cool, and have great stories to tell. Jigsaw has no redeeming features whatsoever. I feel the only death he was somewhat entitled to was that of the person who killed his unborn baby. Everything on from there was just gratuitous jealousy.

It's a little interesting if you look at it in this perspective.
Perhaps there is no more right and wrong or lines for him as far as morals go. He has one goal now that he himself is terminally ill, and that is to make people living empty lives, or double lives (like Dr. Gordon) and giving them a choice to change. They could have each sat back and died, thus taking the easy way out, or played his game and won their way out to a new life. See, the choice is still there, he just makes the easiest option seem a lot more bleak so the person is less likely to cheap out and take the easy way out.
"GoodBadI'm the guy with the Gun" - Army of Darkness - Ash (Bruce Campbell)

Jigsaw didn't turn on Amanda at all! Amanda betrayed Jigsaw's trust, the last test was a test for her, if she had just listened to Jigsaw, did what she said she would, she would have been fine
Amanda didn't play by the rules, so she lost the game.
Though, in truth, I don't feel bad for either of them.
I'll swallow your soul!
Liberals suck

He was just jealous. He knew he was knock, knock, knockin' on heaven's door. He was mad he was dying so he was taking it out on the world. The whole "they don't respecty their lives" thing was just a front.
I do feel sorry for him in a weird way.
I feel more sorry for Amanda. Jigsaw turned on her.
Feed Paris Hilton!

What's sad is that some people think what Jigsaw did was okay. You don't sympathize for the victims? What if they were your friends and family members, then would you still deny Jigsaw's "evilness". Anyway, people are basically saying the ends justify the means. If it makes them a better person, you're allowed to put them through inhumane, traumatic torture cells where they have to mutilate their bodies or other crap? That's the same as forcing change.
You don't force change. A Clockwork Orange had the same idea going on. They have to change out of their free will, not put through a hellish nightmare like that. I certainly thought Jigsaw interesting, and even found myself liking him at times (for his dialogue) but I certainly never believed what he was doing was right.
"future events such as these will affect you in the future"

U all r sad, its a freakin movie!

Well it seems pretty certan that he will be in SAW 4. My guess is in flashbacks. He can still be in a great part of SAW 4.
Sorry if I spell like crap.

I must admit I think it is a tragedy what happened to him in saw 3. I hope Tobin is involved in saw 4 in some way.