Didn't see your post before I made mine, but glad I'm not the only fan here! As a Schoenberg fan, have you heard her version of his VC? Thoughts?
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.

I've always found that women instrumentalists occasionally lack that last ounce of power (when it's needed).
Hillary Hahn will beat you senseless.

Ok, thanks, will take a look at Furtwangler, see if he's the catalyst to my liking it more.
It's not as if I don't like that Sibeliusian(?) soundscape, I just can't concentrate on it for too longbut I have his later syms with Karajan at home (my dad's) so perhaps I can try again; I so wish I were into him as it wold be great to have another symphonist to enjoywe'll see.
Ah, thanks, though I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with my women & music comments & agree re the lack of encouragement.
Much as I admire the brilliance of many female instrumentalists - Neveu, Tureck, Mutter, Landowska etc - I'm hard pushed to name many who I'd consider 'great' (though perhaps we have differing descriptions of that word). Uchida (for her Debussy Etudes cd alone) & Argerich for sure, but I can't think of any fiddler to equal let alone eclipse the talents of Oistrakh, Heifetz, Ferras, Friedman. Argerich can hold her own in any company, though maybe not in non-Romantic repertoire.
I've always found that women instrumentalists occasionally lack that last ounce of power (when it's needed).

Perhaps it'll overwhelm me one day
Your best chance is probably with one of Furtwangler's many recordings. The three essential are his Lucerne '54, Bayreuth '51, and Berlin '42, all offering quite different interpretations and focuses. Lucerne went for the spirituality, Berlin for the drama, Bayreuth somewhere in between.
Sibelius? Hmm, a mystery to me if the music were a painting, it would be a wonderful landscape with nothing in the foreground. Lots of ice, mist & harsh beauty, but nothing to focus on.
The key is to simply enjoy the atmosphere of the ice, mist, and harsh beauty and realize that having anything to "focus on" would indeed distract and detract from that atmosphere. Landscapes shouldn't be portraits. Sibelius tends to use a lot of small thematic clusters that may or may not return and/or recombine in various ways. Something not dissimilar to how Wagner used lietmotifs, though without the stage drama as an interpretive aid.
Ah, women are much the better species in all regardsexcept composing, painting, conducting, playing the piano, playing the violin, jazz piano
The first three because they were rarely encouraged or even allowed to do them before the 20th century; the latter three I wouldn't even agree with given how many great female pianists and violinists we have now and had in the last century.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.

Agree about the VC; it's been a favorite ever since first hearing it, and I don't think anything else Sibelius did is as consistently successful.
I've just recently come round to Handel. Not a great deal, but I quite like a couple of his concerti grossi. I was always comparing him to Bach, which is pointless
Keep listening; he grows on you. He produced a lot of good-to-great work, so I think his greatness, perhaps more than any composer outside Haydn, is accumulative more than concentrated in a few masterpieces. I've come to adore his concerti grossi op. 6. Also agree it's pointless to compare him to Bach; Handel's innate strength was for drama, and even though he was capable of highly intellectual musical abstraction and counterpoint, most of his best works and moments are built around dramatic effects, the very thing Mozart and Beethoven idolized him for. I also find him pleasingly charming in a way Bach rarely is in works like Acis and Galatea, which may be the most relentlessly catchy vocal work ever written. It always puts me in a cheery mood.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.

It's mostly his oratorios and operas for meI sang many of his arias whilst studying and he just can't be beaten for his vocal writing. The same with the recorder writing - the melodies are just so satisfying to play - similar almost to Corelli and Telemann. So underrated.
But I'm also partial to the Water Music now and then, and yes, his concerti grossi and trio sonatas.

I love the Sibelius of his violin concerto - wonderful themes & a chilly but sublime romanticismthat slow movement can moisten the eyes.
You've reminded me of that horn motif in Sib 5, & now I can't get it out of my head! Grrr!
.
I've just recently come round to Handel. Not a great deal, but I quite like a couple of his concerti grossi. I was always comparing him to Bach, which is pointless, & whilst he'll never be a top 5 composer for me, I respect him, & the opening to Zadok rarely fails to excite.

Agree about the top As. The whole choral bit is clearly not written for voices - it's like it was written for a vigorous string section and then given to a choir. It's mad, difficult, and near impossible to get right - but I'd argue that even the best choir in the world would make you wince to listen to the singing without an orchestra to drown half of it out!
Also agree about the middle movements. They really do get tedious. But at least then you super appreciate the excitement of the final movement.
I must admit to loving Sibelius's fifthI don't know why, I know it's cliched and embarrassing (a bit like Beethoven's fifth I suppose) but I just can't help it. That horn theme stays with me for WEEKS so I'd have to say if that doesn't count as foreground material I don't know what does! Though it's definitely a theme as opposed to a tune - perhaps that's what you mean.
It is a lot of haze, but I like that. Someone should find one of those irritating baseless Handel tunes and paint it over some Sibelius haze. See what happens

Nothing wrong with liking the 9th! I don't hate it, it's just always disappointed me. Some wonderful bits, but the 2nd movement goes on far too long & the 3rd never reaches the emotional intensity its closing chords seem to suggest might have preceded them. Some more wonderful bits in the last movement, but there's just too much hollering from the sopranos, & too many top As, which a few will always sing slightly strained & flat, & that just engenders headaches & irritation. Perhaps it'll overwhelm me one day
I love the 5th, but least of all for the first movement. I think the transition between 3rd & 4th movements is one of the greatest things he ever wrote, or that anyone ever wrote.
Sibelius? Hmm, a mystery to me. I like the 2nd, but it's one of the view Sibelius pieces I know (nothing beats his violin concerto imo) that have definite themes to latch on to. I keep trying others, but if the music were a painting, it would be a wonderful landscape with nothing in the foreground. Lots of ice, mist & harsh beauty, but nothing to focus on. I have nightmares about being trapped in a concert hall during the last movement of the 5th. Those final chords almost make me chunder with embarrassment.
Ah, women are much the better species in all regardsexcept composing, painting, conducting, playing the piano, playing the violin, jazz pianobut that there might be 3 women as 3 of the most important / powerful people in the world is cause for celebration

Beethoven 7 is my favourite too, but closely followed by the 9th, I have to confess.
I was pleasantly surprised to see 5 slide to 11th place - yes the first movement is fun but it really isn't his best work by a long way.
Sorry not to see Sibelius there. But hey - overall I was pleasantly surprised with those results. Not that they really mean anything. There is such an obsession with 'what's better, x or y' - everyone's opinion is different. it's like saying what's better man or woman - they're both good, but in different ways! And both as necessary as the other.

I've completely forgotten about Stravinskyhis Sym in 3 Movements is stonking.
Yes!

Oh yes, there are Strauss tone poems I prefer to Alpine, it was just that it has symphony in the title
. Love T & V, but I think ASZ would be my favourite.
I've gone right off Shost recently, but thought one of his could have made it if only to displace one of Mahler's. Shost 5 has that wonderful slow movement, doesn't it.
I really like the opening to Schubert 8, but the slightly unsettling dark feel to it seems to evaporate pretty quickly. Lose concentration after that.
I've completely forgotten about Stravinskyhis Sym in 3 Movements is stonking.

Good to see Brahms 1 up there, but I'd always take Tchaik 5 over 6. Not a bad list, & excellent to see no Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann or Dvorak, though you'd have thought 1 Shost sym would have made it - the 10th perhaps - & what about Alpine Symphony?!
Most of Schubert's symphonies are juvenilia and Mozart pastiche except the 9th and the unfinished 8th. I never cared much for his 9th but the two-movement 8th wouldn't be out of place on this list.
My favorite Strauss tone poem has always been
Tod und Verklaerung
, I wouldn't have minded seeing it on the list in place of Mahler's 3d. Much as I like some of Mahler's symphonies, he's over-represented on this list.
I like some of Shostakovich's symphonies - the 5th except for the finale, the 8th, and the 10th, but I'm not sure they belong in the best of the best list. Top 20 for one or two of them, but not necessarily top 10.

I can't believe Mahler 5's not on thereisn't 3 meant to be a bit of a turkey? Love 1 too, if anything just for the last movement.
Beethoven's 7th is my favourite, but the 9th's never done much for me.
I think I'd like Mahler 2 more than I do (which is a lot) if there wasn't so much effing 'joining god in the heavens' to it.
Good to see Brahms 1 up there, but I'd always take Tchaik 5 over 6. Not a bad list, & excellent to see no Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann or Dvorak, though you'd have thought 1 Shost sym would have made it - the 10th perhaps - & what about Alpine Symphony?!

how do I explain to myself why, then, I find the second movement to be one of the most moving expressions of pastoral melancholy
Because pure musical formalism isn't anathema to emotion. Bach isn't only beloved because of his mathematical complexity, even though it's there.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.

"Brahms's 4th is beloved because of its musical sophistication; it's basically the apotheosis of Brahms's classicism, eschewing the paradigm of romantic expression for pure musical formalism[]"
I'm sure you're right, formally speaking, about its eschewing romantic expression for pure musical formalism, but how do I explain to myself why, then, I find the second movement to be one of the most moving expressions of pastoral melancholy (really, I can't put the mood of the movement into words, it's something to do with deep longing and something like, but not quite, sadness) that I know?

WE SLEEP. THEY LIVE.

See my response to Fonti. The Pathetique is a ground breaking work of musical surrealism. Waltzes in 5/4 time, Marches that don't celebrate as much as they obliterate. You can go right from this to Mahler.

Maybe it was 'methodist'

Bruckner has been called many things but a melodist?

I'll trade you all the musical value in, I don't know, let's say Bruckner, for THE theme - you know the one.
I'd say there is more musical value in the finale of Bruckner's 5th symphony than in all of Tchaikovsky's symphonies combined.
The only thing I really get out of Tchaikovsky's symphonies is some lovely themes and excellent orchestration (but even there, the themes in the adagios of Bruckner's 7th and 8th are as good if not better than anything in Tchaikovsky or Dvorak's symphonies). I can enjoy Tchaikovsky's symphonies for what they're worth (except for his 2d and 3d, which don't even provide much melodic enjoyment), but to rank them along the best of the best is a stretch.

I think all of his movements can vary in quality across the symphonies. I rarely find the finales incoherent; often they just find ways to combine their new themes with the themes from the previous movements, the problem being that Bruckner wasn't the subtle craftsman Brahms was so these attempts can come off as rather awkward and ungainly; the 5th being perhaps the exception (as you note). The problem I have with the adagios is their glacial pace, with Bruckner really straining to write something as sublime as it is imposing. I can understand why someone could be more attune to this approachI appreciate the organ music of Bach for a similar qualitybut they've yet to move me to anything but boredom. The opening movements often have the same quality, but the momentum usually at least keeps them exciting.
As to the dark quality and lack of humor in Bruckner's later scherzos, I would have thought that as an admirer of Mahler you'd appreciate them. The scherzo in Mahler's 6th is as dark as the other movements.
Perhaps you misunderstood as I DO appreciate Bruckner's late scherzos! The last paragraph was just me making a little joke.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.

All I can say is that neither THE theme, nor the forte rendition in the third movement, do anything for me. I'm not the biggest Bruckner fan (though I'm warming to him more than I used to be), but I'd say I enjoy the scherzo of the 9th symphony more than anything in Tchaikovsky's 6th. It occurred to me the other day when discussing rhythm VS melody in music that it sounds vaguely like the Danse des Adolescentes in Rite of Spring.
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
I'd rank Bruckner's symphonies alongside Brahms and Beethoven if it weren't for the scherzos and finales. In his better symphonies, the opening movements and adagios are superb, while the scherzos sound like a broken record and the finales are often a barely coherent mess (this is especially the case in the 3d symphony, I usually only listen to the first two movements when playing a recording, but it's true to a lesser degree in the 4th and 6th as well). There are some exceptions to this: the finale of Bruckner's 5th is as good as any of Brahms' symphonic movements when it comes to pure musical logic and thematic development, and his later scherzos, particularly the 9th, contain some interesting music rather than just noisy repeats of some Austrian folk tune.
As to the dark quality and lack of humor in Bruckner's later scherzos, I would have thought that as an admirer of Mahler you'd appreciate them. The scherzo in Mahler's 6th is as dark as the other movements.

True, and it's hard to prove Wagner's influence on Verdi, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's there to an extent.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.

Verdi and Wagner were headed in the same direction (dramatic integration and elimination of set arias) just through very different means.