I've studied West Virginia history a great deal (I live near there and have family connections, plus the Mothman and some of the most important events in US labor history). Byrd was their Senator from the '50s onward and Manchin (who I think was governor at the time) ran for his seat when he died. Jim Justice, who is the Republican senator now, also previously won a gubernatorial race as a Democrat. But they were basically the most heavily Democratic state in presidential elections for most of the 20th century and Democrats were still competitive there statewide until very recently.
Draft Barron Trump

Yeah, about the time I started paying more attention (which I suppose started in '92) Fl and Oh were considered swing states. Not anymore. I never paid much attention to WV until probably in the twenty teens (more interest and more time on my hands), and by then, except for Manchin being successful, they were all calling WV "Ruby Red." I do have a vague recollection of a D senator named Bird being successful there, but that was before I was paying a lot of attention to politics on a national level.

Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin were always reliably blue. So was West ****ing Virginia! Ohio was always a swing state but it really isn't these days. But hopefully next year's Senate and gubernatorial race proves me wrong.
Draft Barron Trump

Donnie The Diddler won Pa in '16 and '24 and President Biden won it in '20.
I have been here since '92, and as I remember, even though it was always considered a swing state, Pa went blue for POTUS in every election from '92 until '16. Which is probably why Hillary took it for granted. But she did not lose it by a lot.
(Reagan obviously won it in '84, and I don't know whether Bush or Dukakis won it in '88, and I am not curious enough to do the google to find out.)

Didn't Trump win Pennsylvania?
Donna/LadyGigi Savige needs to sit her ass down!

Right. I posted a thread for the Democratic victories in every state. For some reason this one really took off
And this is actually a perfect example of what Donnie The Diddler does best.
Juan seems convinced that the 24 point margin for retaining the three Pa state supreme court justices was due to election fraud.
Because he "heard" that Pa has a history of bogus vote counts.
Because in 2020 the count in Pa took an extended period of time.
Because Republican state lawmakers set the rules so that the count of the truly massive amount of mail in votes (which were mainly cast by Democrats) could not begin until 7 am on Tuesday morning. And I believe that the election workers were not allowed to even
prepare
that overwhelming amount of mail in votes for opening until 7 am on Tuesday.
And add to this that several counties (including the red county that I live in) did not start counting mail ins until Wednesday morning.
And it is a fact that the lion's share of mail ins was democrats
(because Donnie The Diddler specifically told his minions to vote in person and NOT by mail)
.
And before that Tuesday it was no secret that there was an enormous amount of mail in votes that were going to need to be counted; and since Donnie The Diddler had told his zombies NOT to vote by mail, everyone had a pretty good idea of where the voters who had cast those votes were leaning.
So the election workers in Pa were set up from the very beginning to look bad and the vote tabulation to appear questionable.
And Donnie The Diddler needed Pa (and a few other states) and he had the loudest voice in the room and he used it to tell everyone, over and over again, that the extended period of time it took to tabulate the mail in votes in Pa was because Democratic election workers were manufacturing votes.
And there were/are people who want(ed) to believe that.
This came up in a prior thread discussing trust in the vote tabulation in 2020 and Juan's reply was "csb."

Yes, where 5% becomes 10% depending upon how one looks at numbers (
).
Also, the outcome of that election is somehow a laughing matter (Also
).
Ding Dong
!

Oh, okay. Thanks!

Scottish voters got to decide if they wanted become an independent country or stay a part of the UK and 55% opted to remain in the UK
Draft Barron Trump

LOL! That's one I know nothing about, but I am laughing anyway!

He should demand a recount of the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.
Draft Barron Trump

Yes, and that is because Juan seems to feel that in this rather insignificant one, where the margin was 24 points, election fraud was involved.

Right. I posted a thread for the Democratic victories in every state. For some reason this one really took off
Draft Barron Trump

From a purely political perspective there are 19 electoral votes in play in Pa and it is a swing state and viable for both parties.
However, I don't see this last election as very important on a national level in the big scope of things.

Who cares about Pennsylvania?
Donna/LadyGigi Savige needs to sit her ass down!

my comment was more in line with contesting a general election.
i'm not contesting these results. they don't affect me outside of some precedents that are set in their courtroom and federal elections.
from my own personal experience, i think all elections at anything higher than the local level should be scrutinized.

Considering that we voted to retain all three justices on the ballot by approximately 62% to 38%, there really isn't any point in you and Juan contesting the results.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2025-elections/pennsylvania-state-supreme-court-results

very important
so they can't contest election results to ensure the results aren't fraudulent

Without strife, your victory has no meaning.
Without strife, you do not advance.
Without strife, there is only stagnation.

bitchsurn said...
You brought that up before and at that time I explained that there was a record number of votes cast in that election so it only stood to reason that both parties would get more votes than their predecessors.
Donnie also got more popular votes in 2020 than President Obama got in '08, and I guess one could make the same case about that
That's incredibly unusual and worthy of pondering - particularly just the numbers themselves
unless one was to consider how many millions of more people actually voted in '20 than in '08.
expand
unless one was to consider how many millions of more people actually voted in '20 than in '08.
…And the population size
Ding Dong
!

Phaenon said...
I've no idea what Donald, or his supporters, would have done had he won the popular vote but had the Supreme Court dismiss it.
What I do know is that Biden got more votes than either Obama, Hillary or Kamala did in their runs at the POTUS.
That's incredibly unusual and worthy of pondering - particularly just the numbers themselves
I don't know much, or anything, about prolife or the counter to them - but it does seem like a rather sensitive issue that I wouldn't be running on up front and centre.
You brought that up before and at that time I explained that there was a record number of votes cast in that election so it only stood to reason that both parties would get more votes than their predecessors.
Donnie also got more popular votes in 2020 than President Obama got in '08, and I guess one could make the same case about that
That's incredibly unusual and worthy of pondering - particularly just the numbers themselves
unless one was to consider how many millions of more people actually voted in '20 than in '08.

bitchsurn said...
Getting back to fraud related to this election and the vote on whether to retain or not retain these three Pa state supreme court justices:
62% to 38% is a pretty healthy margin, and assuming there was fraud, for results like those, it would have to be perpetrated on a massive level.
The political advertisements that I did see on this ballot issue mainly seemed to focus on women's reproductive rights. This would make me think that it would be one of two groups most likely to perpetrate fraud, and of the two groups, I can tell you from experience that the prolife group are the more wacked out.
But I really don't see fraud on that level happening on this particular election, or for that matter, on any election in this time period.
I am sure that historically there are instances of election fraud; no matter whether it is taking a test in a classroom or stealing something at a self-serve checkout counter or voter registration, there is always going to be a relatively small number of individuals that will try to cheat at anything.
And in some cases it may have made a difference.
But not in a 62% to 38% outcome, and if I had to bet on who the cheaters would be, I'd go with the prolife crowd.
(Donnie is even claiming that the prop 50 vote in Ca was "rigged." And that one was not close either.)
I wasn't old enough to form memories at the time, but Nixon versus Kennedy was about as close as it comes, and from what I have read, there may well have been some hanky-panky happening.
Gore versus W. Bush was closer than close.
And no one really knows what actually happened in Fl.
On a good day Fl is way too much like a 3rd world country, and in '00 with Katherine Harris as Sec Of State (in Fl) and Low Energy Jeb (Bush) for governor (in Fl), the first Tuesday in November of 2000 was not one of the good days there.
Can you imagine what Donnie would have done if he would have actually won the popular vote in '20 but had the Supreme Court declare Biden the winner?
expand
I've no idea what Donald, or his supporters, would have done had he won the popular vote but had the Supreme Court dismiss it.
What I do know is that Biden got more votes than either Obama, Hillary or Kamala did in their runs at the POTUS.
That's incredibly unusual and worthy of pondering - particularly just the numbers themselves
I don't know much, or anything, about prolife or the counter to them - but it does seem like a rather sensitive issue that I wouldn't be running on up front and centre.
Ding Dong
!

Phaenon said...
Here's your AI!
Provide a breakdown of of corruption within recent Pennsylvania elections and how that can affect the outcomes of those elections.
Breakdown of Corruption in Recent Pennsylvania Elections (2020–2024)
Election corruption in Pennsylvania, like in most U.S. states, is exceedingly rare and typically involves isolated acts by individuals rather than organized, systemic schemes. Over the past five years, documented cases have centered on small-scale voter registration fraud, absentee ballot misuse, and double voting—often uncovered through routine audits, cross-state databases like ERIC, and proactive county investigations. According to a Votebeat and Spotlight PA analysis of court records from July 2015 to July 2025, there were only 14 instances where law enforcement confirmed at least one fraudulent ballot was cast out of roughly 61 million ballots statewide. The Heritage Foundation's database, which tracks fraud convictions nationwide, lists just 39 cases in Pennsylvania over the last 30 years across over 100 million votes. No evidence has emerged of widespread fraud altering outcomes in any recent election.
Below, I categorize key examples by type, drawing from federal and state prosecutions. These cases represent a tiny fraction (less than 0.0001%) of votes cast and were swiftly addressed by safeguards like voter ID checks, signature verification, and ballot tracking.

1. Voter Registration Fraud
   This is the most common recent issue, often tied to paid canvassing drives where workers fabricate forms to meet quotas. Motives are typically financial, not partisan, and forms span all party affiliations.
   2024 Pre-Election Canvassing Scheme (York, Lancaster, Berks, and Monroe Counties): Seven individuals, including Field+Media Corps director Guillermo Sainz and six canvassers, were charged in October 2025 for submitting ~2,500 fake registrations. Forms featured identical handwriting, fake names, and incomplete data. Prosecutors emphasized this was profit-driven, not election-tampering. Similar probes in Lehigh and Monroe yielded three more charges for forgery and identity theft. None resulted in fraudulent votes, as counties rejected unverified forms pre-Election Day.
   2021 Millbourne Borough Mayoral Race: Three officials (MD Nurul Hasan, MD Munsur Ali, and MD Rafikul Islam) pleaded guilty in April 2025 to registering ~35 non-residents, forging signatures, and casting write-in ballots via mail. This local scheme aimed to sway a small race but failed—Hasan lost despite the fraud.
2. Absentee/Mail-In Ballot Fraud
   These involve unauthorized use of ballots, often by family members for deceased relatives, exploiting gaps in verification.
   CaseYearDetailsOutcomeMelissa Fisher (Quakertown)2020Submitted a mail-in ballot for her deceased mother.Misdemeanor conviction in 2022; one invalid vote.Bruce Bartman (Montgomery County)2020Falsely registered and cast absentee ballots for his deceased mother and mother-in-law.Criminal conviction; two invalid votes.Robert Richard Lynn (Philadelphia)2020Used deceased mother's credentials for an absentee ballot.Misdemeanor conviction; one invalid vote.Cheryl Mihaliak (Lancaster County)2022 PrimaryForged and submitted ballot for deceased mother.Convicted on two counts; one invalid vote.Philip C. Pulley (Montgomery County)2020–2022Multiple fraud offenses, including unauthorized absentee voting.Sentenced January 2025 to 3 years probation, $9,500 fine, and 100 hours community service (50 focused on election integrity).
   These affected fewer than 10 ballots total across millions cast.
3. Double Voting
   Rare cross-state incidents, detected via ERIC.
   Matthew Laiss (Bucks County, 2020): Voted by mail in PA after moving to Florida, then in-person there. Charged September 2025; faces up to 5 years if convicted.
   Miya Pack (Philadelphia, 2024): Voted early in NJ and on Election Day in PA. Charged September 2025; one invalid vote.
4. Other Incidents
   Fulton County Voting Machine Breach (2021–2023): Two Republican commissioners allowed unauthorized access to 2020 machines for fraud probes, leading to contempt sanctions and decertification threats. No fraud found; it eroded trust but didn't alter votes.
   Historical Echo: 39th Ward Scheme (Pre-2020, Prosecuted 2021): Ex-Congressman Ozzie Myers bribed poll workers to stuff machines. Convictions in 2021; irrelevant to recent outcomes but highlights ongoing vulnerabilities.
   How Corruption Affects Election Outcomes
   Direct Impact: Negligible to None
   Scale vs. Margins: PA's 2020 presidential race was decided by ~80,000 votes (Biden over Trump); 2024 by a similar slim margin (Trump win). Confirmed fraud cases total <50 invalid votes—far below thresholds to flip results. Experts, including Trump's former AG Bill Barr, affirm no widespread fraud affected 2020 outcomes after 60+ court cases and GOP-led audits. In local races like Millbourne, fraud didn't change the winner.
   Safeguards Mitigate: Pre-verification rejected 2024 fake registrat

bitchsurn said...
Well, it is what it is, but as I previously typed, I watch the local news enough to know that they thrive on scandals, and a massive amount of election fraud in Pa would meet that criteria for them.
Here's your AI!
Provide a breakdown of of corruption within recent Pennsylvania elections and how that can affect the outcomes of those elections.
Breakdown of Corruption in Recent Pennsylvania Elections (2020–2024)
Election corruption in Pennsylvania, like in most U.S. states, is exceedingly rare and typically involves isolated acts by individuals rather than organized, systemic schemes. Over the past five years, documented cases have centered on small-scale voter registration fraud, absentee ballot misuse, and double voting—often uncovered through routine audits, cross-state databases like ERIC, and proactive county investigations. According to a Votebeat and Spotlight PA analysis of court records from July 2015 to July 2025, there were only 14 instances where law enforcement confirmed at least one fraudulent ballot was cast out of roughly 61 million ballots statewide. The Heritage Foundation's database, which tracks fraud convictions nationwide, lists just 39 cases in Pennsylvania over the last 30 years across over 100 million votes. No evidence has emerged of widespread fraud altering outcomes in any recent election.
Below, I categorize key examples by type, drawing from federal and state prosecutions. These cases represent a tiny fraction (less than 0.0001%) of votes cast and were swiftly addressed by safeguards like voter ID checks, signature verification, and ballot tracking.

1. Voter Registration Fraud
   This is the most common recent issue, often tied to paid canvassing drives where workers fabricate forms to meet quotas. Motives are typically financial, not partisan, and forms span all party affiliations.
   2024 Pre-Election Canvassing Scheme (York, Lancaster, Berks, and Monroe Counties): Seven individuals, including Field+Media Corps director Guillermo Sainz and six canvassers, were charged in October 2025 for submitting ~2,500 fake registrations. Forms featured identical handwriting, fake names, and incomplete data. Prosecutors emphasized this was profit-driven, not election-tampering. Similar probes in Lehigh and Monroe yielded three more charges for forgery and identity theft. None resulted in fraudulent votes, as counties rejected unverified forms pre-Election Day.
   2021 Millbourne Borough Mayoral Race: Three officials (MD Nurul Hasan, MD Munsur Ali, and MD Rafikul Islam) pleaded guilty in April 2025 to registering ~35 non-residents, forging signatures, and casting write-in ballots via mail. This local scheme aimed to sway a small race but failed—Hasan lost despite the fraud.
2. Absentee/Mail-In Ballot Fraud
   These involve unauthorized use of ballots, often by family members for deceased relatives, exploiting gaps in verification.
   CaseYearDetailsOutcomeMelissa Fisher (Quakertown)2020Submitted a mail-in ballot for her deceased mother.Misdemeanor conviction in 2022; one invalid vote.Bruce Bartman (Montgomery County)2020Falsely registered and cast absentee ballots for his deceased mother and mother-in-law.Criminal conviction; two invalid votes.Robert Richard Lynn (Philadelphia)2020Used deceased mother's credentials for an absentee ballot.Misdemeanor conviction; one invalid vote.Cheryl Mihaliak (Lancaster County)2022 PrimaryForged and submitted ballot for deceased mother.Convicted on two counts; one invalid vote.Philip C. Pulley (Montgomery County)2020–2022Multiple fraud offenses, including unauthorized absentee voting.Sentenced January 2025 to 3 years probation, $9,500 fine, and 100 hours community service (50 focused on election integrity).
   These affected fewer than 10 ballots total across millions cast.
3. Double Voting
   Rare cross-state incidents, detected via ERIC.
   Matthew Laiss (Bucks County, 2020): Voted by mail in PA after moving to Florida, then in-person there. Charged September 2025; faces up to 5 years if convicted.
   Miya Pack (Philadelphia, 2024): Voted early in NJ and on Election Day in PA. Charged September 2025; one invalid vote.
4. Other Incidents
   Fulton County Voting Machine Breach (2021–2023): Two Republican commissioners allowed unauthorized access to 2020 machines for fraud probes, leading to contempt sanctions and decertification threats. No fraud found; it eroded trust but didn't alter votes.
   Historical Echo: 39th Ward Scheme (Pre-2020, Prosecuted 2021): Ex-Congressman Ozzie Myers bribed poll workers to stuff machines. Convictions in 2021; irrelevant to recent outcomes but highlights ongoing vulnerabilities.
   How Corruption Affects Election Outcomes
   Direct Impact: Negligible to None
   Scale vs. Margins: PA's 2020 presidential race was decided by ~80,000 votes (Biden over Trump); 2024 by a similar slim margin (Trump win). Confirmed fraud cases total <50 invalid votes—far below thresholds to flip results. Experts, including Trump's former AG Bill Barr, affirm no widespread