Secondly, they didn't set out to ruin the cart-owners business. And they didn't intend for the cart to go down the stairs.
Of course they didn't. They're just stupid. I don't excuse stupidity. Stupid people deserve what happens to them. And the point is, at least half of them grew up to be worthless criminal scumbags. Brad Pitt broke his oath as a DA.
None of them are victims. Call it karma, maybe. There is no excuse for what those punks did or they did when they grew up. What goes around comes around.
I wouldn't be in a situtation where a prank like that would go horribly wrong because I'm not a goddamn imbecile and I was raised properly.
Never trust a black man named "Chip."

First, it's Nokes, not Nuggs. Repeat after me .. NOKES.
Secondly, they didn't set out to ruin the cart-owners business. And they didn't intend for the cart to go down the stairs. You're pretty twisted if you think an accident means someone deserves to be raped and tortured both mentally and physically. I hope you never are the cause of an accident and if you are you might want to plug up your holes and say some prayers. If you can compare a kid who's prank went wrong to a child molesting crapbag and come up with 1 and 1 is 2 you're in for a lot of rides on the short bus.

They deserved to get molested and raped for what they did to the innocent man in the subway (and ruining the cart-owners business and livlihood).
All four of them were pieces of sh!t. I'm not defending Nuggs, just saying those kids aren't any better and they aren't victims.
Never trust a black man named "Chip."

"Aaaaaaahhhhhhh".. i just peed on your mother. i hope I get away with it..
Fabio Testi is GOD

How do you know NOKES wasn't abused as a child too? If he was, does it make his abuses as justifiable as JOHN & TOMMY's murders?
This is an interesting one, there is evidence that some abusers are actually abused who have become abusers, carrying on in a cycle where they repeat what was done to them. The argument that he wouldn't have behaved this way if he was the victim of abuse doesn't stand up as always being the case. (I would emphasise that I am say SOME abusers are abused who continue the cycle and I'm putting this simplistically on a movie discussion board. It is generally a lot more complicated, such as they are forced into the abuser ring, made to become an abuser and kept within the group that way. Just to be clear that I am not suggest abused become abusers or are a danger to others etc.)
If you were to abuse an animal constantly there is every chance they will turn on anyone who comes near them. If you bring a child up like an animal in an environment of constant abuse it could become the same. That isn't to say it is he case or Nokes is a victim, just that with a story like this the background of someone like Nokes is important if you do want to understand how this comes about.

very interesting points on both sides. I wish more threads on imdb were like this. Unfortunately, too many idiots use computers.

And what about the other 5 people
JOHN
killed?

Well, what Nokes did to children was hardly a REVENGE, it was nothing but of sadistic nature.
Eileen Wuornos for example got abused, beaten and raped by several men, therefor she developed a deep rooted hate at men and killed them, she never killed a girl or a woman.

How do you know
NOKES
wasn't abused as a child too? If he was, does it make his abuses as justifiable as
JOHN
&
TOMMY
's murders?

"I like fixin' people gooood!"

• Papa Jupiter

SPOILER BELOW
They paid for thier crimes in the end, both died at 29. Nokes was a terrible person, but I don't know if he was fully responsible for turning them to a life of crime. Michael and Shakes suffered the same abuses and grew up to be law-abding citizens.

"The sun is shiningbut the ice is slippery."

You are right. Forgot that he didn't die. But that doesn't change the fact that he was the first victim. And I wasn't comparing them to Nokes. That would be ridiculous. Of course he's way worse. Its not even a debate. The above poster stated the children were the FIRST VICTIMS. and I just stated that they weren't the first.
Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself- Omar Little

He didn't die the movie clearly shows him convalescing in hospital, Shakes narration even says '
While James Caldwell was slowly recovering in St. Claire's hospital
'. That cleared up yes he was the first victim but not a victim of malice or sustained sexual and physical abuse. He was the victim of a stupid childish prank by a group of kids who seemed otherwise inherently good natured and remorseful despite their environment. Nokes and his cronies doled out a debased, perverse, violent sustained attack over the course of at least a year. Kids make mistakes it's part of growing up, adults should know better.
Yours sincerely, General Joseph Liebgott

While I agree with everything you're saying, the first victim was the guy that got killed in the first place. Without him, there would be no abuse to the boys.
Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself- Omar Little

Ever thought about that the lives of the two may would have turned out much different without the abuse they experienced?
I think that's one of the main problems of society today, first taking notice when the circle of violence closes - and not when it starts.
The FIRST VICTIMS in this whole story were definitely the boys. And who could be more innocent like children. To me, nothing is more abhorrent like an adult using his power to hurt and to abuse a helpless kid. Nothing causes more damage to society like this.
By growing up after what they experienced they had to carry the trauma that was laid on their shoulders every single day. How can anyone expect this won't affect the development of their character?
This is no excuse, but it represents the root of their tendency to violence.

Disagree. Perhaps they deserved to do time for one of the other crimes they committed, but that man definitely deserved to die and at the hands of his victims. They shouldn't serve even a second for his killing.