I remember the masturbation. Interesting scene. You think he pulled it off?

Yuichi is being used as a messenger to go tell Kuno where to go. The gang knows that she wont follow them, so they ask someone she might trust to bring her to the factory.
Girls' gangs and guys' gangs work together alot. The leader of the girls' gang probably asked the Hoshino to do something about Kuno, but she probably wasn't expecting rape.
The things the kids say in the van may not entirely be true. A lot of the things they say have to do with regret. They don't express it directly, but they are feeling a sense of guilt and say particular things in order to justify their actions and tell themselves that it's okay.

You know why? Because when you make a film that is not in any real discernible chronological order, then the order in which all events took place is suspect. I can deal with movie that aren't strictly chronological, but this film is way too disjointed.

How could Hoshino have been raping her when we clearly see him standing outside of the factory during the event?
ANIME JA NAI

Was it Hoshino himself who raped her or the boys though?? I always get confuzzled with that ^_^()
http://www.livejournal.com/users/xsadavirusx/ << the diary of Sadako (my LiveJournal)

The more I read people's comments on this movie, the more I like it.

they went to okinawa, not osaka.

I agree with you about Hoshino's sudden change in mood. It started way before the trip to Osaka, I would even venture to say it started the night Yuichi slept over and sort of pointed out Hoshino's alien-like pervasiveness, because he then (Hoshino) starts in the talk about rumors and that noone seems to understand him.

Very subtle! Everyone talks of the significance of the drowning scene, it's like, Hoshino is the fall guy in this whole film. None of us know what he's been throught as a kid, as you're only really given full insight into Yuichi's family life (which is pretty harmonius and happy), if the movie gave a greater insight into the turmoils of Hoshino's life (which it obvioulsy couldn't, as it's length is already the greatest criticism the film has recieved collectively), then maybe the audience would understand Hoshino's longling for abandon, thus, trying to swim to that island, a plight which is totally unclear and up for interpretation.

i agree that these factors changed Hoshino, but i also think that in some ways his change in personaliy cannot be explained by past events, which makes his downfall all the more heart-wrenching. he seems to get high off controlling his classmates and, almost like lord of the flies, he goes crazy with power until he literally dies (not from the power itself, but as a result of wielding the power without restraint).

i agree
im not sure, but i even think there is some kind of evidence in the film to make it clear. i think they specifically mention hoshino's name.
but regardless, all of the factors have to do with his change.
but i think there is a really big one that is even more subtle but nonetheless a major part of the entire theme/point of the movie and that is the huge hints we are given about hoshino's life in elementary school.
when we first meet kuno, we also discover some other former classmates of hoshino's who go to another junior high. hoshino is still a very meek and calm boy at this point, but we can tell that he suffered from bullying at his elementary school. once he is able to steal the money from the other gang and later take the authority from the current bully of the school, hoshino starts to realize the power he can have if he takes on the role that once used to torment him. i think the inner workings and causes of bullying in japan are a main point of this film.

I also believe that is was Hoshino who nearly got killed by the sword fish, not Yuichi.

I believe it was also Hoshino that almost got killed by that swordfish. I always thought that was the final big thing that finally sent him over the edge.
The whole thing about the matrix and "nothing is real", I would think means something like after a near death experience, nothing else matters.
Anyways, those are my opinions.

Factors that change Hoshino:
-Hoshino's parents lost their business and ended up in a divorce.
-The incident in Okinawa when the guy got ran over. Hoshino thought this was a bad omen.
-The drowning incident where Hoshino tried to reach another island where Lily supposibly gets her influence. [This was subtle]
-The swordfish that almost killed one of his friends. Bad omen again.
-The Matrix?

Also the evil girl told Yuichi (in front of the factory that belonged to Hoshino's family) that the family lost their richies and that changed Hoshino?

I also found that Hoshino did change after he had that near death experience.he also mentioned it on the chat room ''it's like the matrix, nothing is real''
Man, I do love this film.

So many of you are confused let me clear things up a bit for those of you who missed it (by the way, watch it again, it'll make more sense). Firstly, yes, it was Yuichi who masterbated. That solves that
Now onto the Kuno part which more people misunderstood. To begin with, it was the girls in the class that hated Kuno. They were jealous of her talent and of the fact that the guys in the class respected her talent. The girls wanted the attention that Kuno was getting and therefore hated her. Beyond that, Hoshino was actually the mastermind behind the plan.
What does Hoshino have to do with it? Well, if you listened during the rape scene, the girl who hates Kuno says the abandoned barn was once Hoshino's family business. Also in the fan, the guys are saying they hate that Hoshino got them involved and want to kill him. Although, he didn't tell them to rape her and neither did the other girl. But, nonetheless, they still blame him. You'll also notice that as Yuichi Hasumi cries as Kuno is raped, it cuts to a scene of Hoshino casually smoking a cigarette as if he feels no shame or guilt about the acts in which the boys are committing.
So then, why is Hoshino the way he is? Well, if you didn't notice, he was picked on a lot and wanted to become stronger. He joined kendo to become stronger. He hated being the smart kid in class and couldn't stand the things people said about the speech he was forced to give. Some people think he turned bad after the trip to Osaka. They're wrong. He started even before that. Who was it that stole the money from the bullies after they took it from the guy with the Porsche? That's right, Hoshino. So you see, he slowly became a bad guy. His actions just became worse and worse. That punk in school that died his hair really sent him over the edge. He started out trying to protect those who were weak by stopping that bully. But unfortunately he took a liking to hurting people and became a bully himself.
Everything in the movie is thoroughly explained. You just have to look for the details. I can honestly say I've only seen the movie once thus far and I understood almost every bit of it. I still plan to rewatch it with some friends though just because it was that good. Hope I've helped some of you get a grip on the story. See ya.

well, the film is out of order, but it's not that the masturbation scene belongs after he shows the cd to the teacher, because if you remember, the cd was actually broken in that scene, so it must happen before.
im pretty sure that hoshino just thinks that yuichi told on him when he got caught shoplifting the lily cd.
in chronological order i believe the movie goes like this:
hoshino is class leader and gives the speech, which causes students to despise him
hoshino and yuichi become friends when they are on the kendo team together
after summer training, the first year boys take the money from the rich guy and go to okinawa
hoshino has the near death experience which most likely pushes his bad side further out
i think what is important to understanding hoshino is thinking about some things he says at the beginning of the film.
he says that people have the wrong idea about him. he is strongly rejecting the position he was put in as the class leader.
he wants to join kendo so he can be stronger. he feels like he was weak and he was probably bullied in elementary school (evident by the guys from his old school at the station)
i think hoshino was a good kid in elementary school and was picked on. from this his progression is marked by milestones. 1, he steals the money (he wants to change his image by doing a bad thing). 2, he almost dies twice, the fish and the near-drowning (which he probably feels he deserves when the tour guide tells him the gods are against him). 3, he throws the money (attempts to repent his bad deeds). 4, he stands up to the bully (revenge for what happened to him by other bullies). 5, he takes the bullying thing too far and humiliates the bully (he is corrupted by the pleasure he gets from humiliating the bully) 6, he begins to lead a gang and his tyranny is felt by many including tsuda, yuichi, and kuno.
basically, i think a huge theme of this film has to do with bullying (yeah, i know obvious). it's about how the bullied often become the bullies and how those who do nothing/do what yuichi did enable it.
ironically kuno was probably one of those who suffered the worst bullying, yet she was the strongest of any one and stuck it out.

The three "sections" are date marked with a chatroom style note about the year, and Yuichi's age. It goes 14, 13, then 15 ("the age of grey").
Getting the bus saves time but it sure don't lengthen yr life! - Harvey Pekar

Yeah, it makes much more sense that way. I wish the director would've put more indication of the time because lots of people seem to not really get it when watching.

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Hey! There is one other thing - at the start of the film when Yuichi is forced to masterbate, its Hoshino that's in charge. So he had a violent side to him long before the Okinawa thing. Or am I completely on the wrong lines? I sometimes wonder if this this part is in order, because I don't get why Hoshino thinks Yuichi ratted on him - its almost like this scene would fit better after Yuichi shows the broken CD to the teacher.
Nonono, this is a sort of confusing part of the movie, and if you misinterpret it then you come out with a really weird idea about the movie
The film is not in chronological order. The Okinawa scenes take place, chronogically, earlier then any other scene in the movie. The scenes leading up to and happening at Okinawa are the earliest things that happen. Then we have the middle, which is where Hoshino becomes a jerk and all that, then finally the ending with the concert. The beginning of the film is part of the chronological middle of the events.

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and also this guy, thats later blue cat and the leader of the group, how come that hes normal and shy and after the okinawa excurse hes an beep and gangleader, i dont get this change, why, how?! wtf
i thought the same thing. i didn't quite catch what brought about his dramatic change.
"Now I know I'm always right; that's a thought that never even crossed my mind"