First I must say
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Kaijudoking — 18 years ago(December 17, 2007 11:59 AM)
Did you know that McLean Stevenson who played Lt. Col. Henry Blake on "M.A.S.H" the TV series died February 15 1996 of a heart attack, while Roger Bowen who played his character in the older movie "MASH" died February 16 1996 of a heart attack.
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just1Hitch — 18 years ago(January 29, 2008 09:18 AM)
I see no "connection" between her role in
The Secret of NIMH
and her suicide beyond mere coincidence. She did not die "right after this film" but at least 5 years later. None of us can know what is in the minds of others or what motivates their actions.
I don't think I want to go to the pictures. Oh?Why not? I've seen everything worth seeing. -
wwmmjr — 18 years ago(March 21, 2008 10:47 AM)
I don't know , but perhaps you've spent some professional time in the clinical milieu . If such is indeed the case , then I respectfully ask that you recall that the depressed individual VERY FREQUENTLY does not live in the "here and now" , but rather oft times evokes the defensive mechanism of regression , to a pathologic degree , and actually exists in some marriage of reality which may predominately include the "then and there" . Clinical depression (Major , w or w/o psychotic features) , is almost ALWAYS a non-spontaneous (acute) expression that develops / builds / "festers" over time , and usually involves some degree of rumination . There are individuals who embrace suicidal ideation as behavioral sequela many decades after the initiating event . As example , consider P.T.S.D. . How many are likely to demonstrate asocial behavior "right after" (your words - your context) triggering circumstance ? Answer - Not many . Look five , ten , or twenty years into the statistical future , and you MAY be able to extrapolate a parallel as to why Elizabeth Hartman didn't rush to the nearest elevator after immediately after viewing "The Secret of NIHM" . I mean , really . I hope that I remember to delete the word "professional" as used previously .
Aside from the obvious disagreement as to the "causality" of the tragic death of Elizabeth Hartman , and at the risk of sounding presumptively "god-like" , some professionals can indeed know (and feel) what is in the minds of others . Beyond the D.S.M.4tr , there is the quality / gift of something best defined as "empathy" . Although this may sound laughable , in some respects it may be thought of as the flip-side of the blindness that results from a mind closed , and void of light as if I were to abruptly cease reading on the assumption that I've already read everything worth reading . Humm , sounds familiar .
Beyond "the dollar" and the rigidity of some of the A.P.A. orthodoxy , there are individuals who've managed to both combine decades of formal study with the aforementioned gift of empathy , and through insight and intellect , indeed "further our understanding of depression" . Aside from the usual handful of major theories (of which I trust you're familiar) , I recommend the relative latter works of Stanislav Grof .
Obviously no one can draw a concrete comparison between the manner of death of Elizabeth Hartman and the character portrayed in the animated "The Secret of NIMH" , but to dismiss the possible relationship as not even being remotely feasible is tantamount to "implying a causal relationship with no basis in fact" . I , personally , have no difficulty in visualizing a possible (if not probab111cle) "connection" based on the facts of which I'm aware . In fact , I extend kudos to the person who initiated this interesting and thought provoking discussion . As sad as the topic may be , may it serve as some positive remembrance for the gifted Elizabeth Hartman , and also for the many pained aspects of the illness associated with her untimely death . Additionally , I hope that Rick Edgar doesn't mind my "borrowing" his closing remark .
wmm -
just1Hitch — 18 years ago(March 22, 2008 12:49 PM)
Thank you, wwjmmr, your impressive analysis offers much "food for thought" and I admit that a connection is possible. I appreciate your making the effort to enlighten us on this subject. I have no professional background in this area but do have a family member living with depression.
I don't think I want to go to the pictures. Oh?Why not? I've seen everything worth seeing. -
SNartwork_4_U — 17 years ago(June 06, 2008 12:00 AM)
Wow.
Never had I thought when I posted this topic that it would generate such thought provoking replies. I am very intrigued esspecially by your response 'wwmmjr'. Very interesting notions and thoughts you bing up on the subject.
And just to clear the air, when I mentioned Mrs. Hartman chose to end her life right after performing in 'The Secret of NIMH', I did not mean that in a literal sense, but I suppose that's my fault for not saying what I mean. I meant to imply that 'The Secret of NIMH' was the last film she had done before choosing to take her own life.
To this day, even after learning of her untimely death, I am still deeply saddened to think that we lost such a talented actress to such a senseless act and for me personally, her role in 'The Secret of NIMH' 2000will always be my favorite performance that she gave us. Such hope, determination, bravery, and love was put into that performance from just the sound of her voice alone and to me (as much as many may disagree or simply snub it off as just a 'kids film') it will always be in my opinion her greatest work.
Perhaps, such a powerful performance was driven by her inner struggles with depression and her emotional illness? Who knows. And it is such a shame that no one ever will.
Kudos to Don Bluth, his team, and everyone involved with 'The Secret of NIMH' for creating such a heart driven and marvelous masterpiece of story telling. It really does not get as much credit as it deserves in showing us that not all animated features are simply just sing and dancing happy animals, but can also appeal to everyone and show us worlds where not everything is rainbows and sunshine, but can be just as real and moving as life is. -
hoboboxerjoe — 15 years ago(June 04, 2010 08:02 AM)
I totally agree with your post! I have felt extremely sucidal myself. And people who generalize those who've tried to commit sucide into thinking we are "taking the easy way out." etc. They need to realize that it always feels like the last choice, that actually living and staying unhappy is in fact a slow and painful way to die, sometimes. Not many would demand a cancer patient (which I am, as well) to go through the treatments if there was no way they would survive anyway. It is needlessly painful. Some people have an "emotional cancer" for lack of a better analogy.
I personally suffered PTSD from having to shoot and kill two men who tried to kill me in a home invasion. I seriously slept just fine for months after the event (I've been in real combat before, and I've seen people die before, so maybe that had something to do with it), but between the cancer and these events. It sure built up! I go weeks, sometimes, without leaving my dinky, stuffy, nasty, apartment. Haven't had a relationship in a year, etc. And of course, waiting for my dsiability settlement. So it's not like I can take anyone's advice on ANYTHING that costs money.
Point is, you can feel really stuck, even with a loving support system. I honestly don't know how I've made it as I have very few friends and family that check in on me anymore, must be because I'm autistic as well, haha. -
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SnoozeAlarm — 13 years ago(November 26, 2012 09:22 PM)
When I had reseached her career and read up long ago that she had died in such a tragic way right after this film (by way of suicide, from leaping to her death) I was crushed.
so was she
I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man with no sole.
~ Ancient Disco Proverb