Thanks for the reply. I can see where you are coming from with what you are saying but I just still do not believe they
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neelay123 — 10 years ago(March 14, 2016 01:44 PM)
Well maybe it wasn't the director but someone within the production didn't do their research. I know that members of Nina's family are not happy including her own daughter. Apparently the director/writer had been shut out of a-lot of the decision making. And just because someone is a great actress doesn't mean the are right for a role. We are talking about a woman who's dark skin played a key part to her music, life and career. If the director knew that and still chose to darken Zoe then we're already off to a bad start.
Now don't get me wrong of course there are times when the actor looks nothing like the character but by the end of the film it doesn't matter. But when you have a light skinned actress caked in horrible make up she's going to have to do one hell of a job to distract people from that. I hope she can pull it off.
And "casting the best actor" is true in some cases. in others it's a big excuse people use. It's just a lazy way for a closed circle of people to keep within their closed circle. Do you really believe that Rooney Mara was the best actress to play Tiger Lily? A traditionally Native American character. No. A young Native actress was just denied the chance yet again. Because people can get away with it.
You hit the nail on the head with letting the actor channel the spirit of the character. For me that would have been the best possible thing to do with Zoe. And that is part of the reason no one really cared about Denzel not being the same skin tone as Malcolm X. He became the character and didn't need to be caked in make up to do so. The same thing applies with Angela Bassett as Tina Turner.
Another reason why people have taken issue with Zoe's casting is because funnily enough a lot of people don't know that she is black. Even Wendy Williams said on her talk show that Zoe is not black. When Zoe says she's Latina she isn't denying her blackness as you can still be both black as Latina but unfortunately a lot of people are misinformed.
Apparently Nina Simone wanted a young Whoopi Goldberg to play her. And I can see why. Whoopi like Nina challenged the norm of what was deemed beautiful and attractive in the industry and became a star. I don't have an issue with Zoe taking a part. She's a working actress with two mouths to feed. But I truly believe that if Nina were alive today Zoe wouldn't even be considered for an audition. -
Sweet_and_Lowdown77 — 10 years ago(March 14, 2016 03:32 PM)
The idea that Zoe isn't "black", with all due respect, is silly. She is of mixed race. While not 100% black, she's definitely a person of color like millions of South Americans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans. POC come from different parts of the world, not just Africa.
Do you consider Barack Obama black? He's of mixed race. Malcolm X was of mixed race. Would these men NOT be "black"?
When Nicole Kidman donned a fake nose, dyed and cut her hair and had her skin whitened to portray Virginia Woolf, no one said anything. She looked ridiculous to me. It was distracting. Couldn't the filmmakers have found a pale, brunette with a big nose? Why did they hire Nicole Kidman?
And she won an Oscar.
I b68think the African Community doesn't realize that altering appearances with make up and prosthetics is quite common. Ben Kinglesy had to have his skin darkened to play Gandhi. He was 1/2 Indian but his skin tone and features favored his mother, who was white.
Anthony Hopkins looked NOTHING like Richard Nixon. he fake nose, brow, chin and make up did nothing to help.
IMO and I don't mean to start a fire, but IMO, I believe the reason there's a controversy here, and why there wasn't in the case of Malcolm X, is because they had to darken Zoe with MU. That offended POC. Casting Denzel who's blacker than Malcolm wasn't offensive because the Black Community doesn't have issue going the other way. Making Malcolm X look like he's darker than he really was didn't offend because that's an image of Malcolm they don't mind.
Flip the script and you'd have controversy. If Malcolm X was dark skinned and they cast a light skinned actor to play him, there would've been chaos. But because it went the other way, there was none.
But making an icon lighter, that offended even if that wasn't their intent.
There are MANY reasons Nina's family might have locked out the filmmakers. This happens all the time. Perhaps the script depicts scenes the family didn't want revealed and YES, maybe they wanted a different actress. But that doesn't mean the film can't be good.
The bad make up shots of Zoe that leaked were from images off set. They were not lit properly or put through the color timing. In the official trailer, the make up doesn't look bad. It's not great, but you can't unlearn or unsee the photos that leaked. -
neelay123 — 10 years ago(March 14, 2016 04:07 PM)
If Zoe Malcolm and Barack identify as black thats their right and no one can say otherwise.
Comparing Nicole and Zoe's casting is pointless in my opinion. Nicole lighenning her skin to play a caucasian woman is not going to limit parts for fair skinned brunette actresses. Not to mention she is already quite pale. And as I keep saying Nina Simone was a woman that was proud of her dark skin and understood how devalued it was in her time. Can you say the same for Virginia and her pale skin? No because in her time pale/fair skin was deemed the most beautiful.
I am part of the african diaspora and I can tell you that at least from where i'm standing we do understand make up and prosthetics but a lot of us also understand the history of racism in the film industry that affects people today. Particularly women.
When we can see Lupita Nyong'o playing Eartha Kitt. Or Thandie Newton playing Audrey Hepburn than I will believe your point. But we are not there yet with film.
Skin colour is a big issue within all races and communities. You might have a point with the Malcolm X casting but you'd need to come up with more examples. You also have to consider the time the film came out. We didn't have the computer technology we have then to jump on controversy like we do now. There's also the fact that Denzel was already an A lister and an Academy Award winner by the time he made the movie. Not to mention the fact that obviously men have it easier. But notice how dark skinned actors rarely alter their skin for the role.
I believe that with someone like Nina. Skin colour was was just never going to be ignored. Before Viola Davis and Lupita starting getting famous the big name black actresses were Halle Berry, Zoe Saldana and occasionally Kerry Washington and Paula Patton. In the 50's and 60's it was Lena Horn, Dorothy Dandridge and Diahann Carol. That was generally what the film industry deemed as acceptable black leading ladies. Any darker and you were a servant. Ignorance like that does not change over night and it effects things today. Had beautiful darker skinned actress been given the chance to play leading ladies back in the 40's 50's and 60's we wouldn't be having this discussion. Zoe would be playing Nina and nobody would care. But it is what it is.
Having seen the trailer Zoe I still feel that Zoe's make up is horrible. Standing next to David who actually has dark skin she looks really bad. -
Sweet_and_Lowdown77 — 10 years ago(March 14, 2016 07:23 PM)
This conspiracy you mention, that there is an agenda in the entertainment industry against dark, black women, if this is TRUE, then why would the filmmakers darken Zoe? Doesn't that fly in the face of what you're saying? If they're not trying to promote darker, black women, then why would they present an actress that is DARKER?
Isn't it possible just possible that the filmmakers met with several actresses, auditioned some and chose Zoe based on her talent? Is that possible?
If your argument is that there aren't enough quality female roles, then you may have an argument. Most actresses of all races struggle to find quality roles. It's probably why Nicole altered her appearance so much. And, just for accuracy, Nicole isn't naturally pale. She's a vibrant red head with a ton of freckles.
If there was a conspiracy to keep darker black women down, how does Viola Davis star in her own TV show? Kerry Washington? How does Lupita Wyong'o get the role in 12 Years A Slave? Certainly there were light skinned actresses available for all these, no?
I don't understand what you mean when you say Thandie Newton playing Audrey Hepburn? Zoe may not classify herself as African-American but she is part Black and is a POC. It's not like the Filmmakers here cast Rachel McAdams and painted her skin. Do you think bigots wearing white sheets care about the "shade" of black or a person? I assure you they hate all POC. They wouldn't stop a lynching if the person said they were Latina.
I gave you the example of how filmmakers darkened Ben Kingsley for GANDHI. The Rock, a Black Man, for the film GRIDIRON GANG, based on a true story, played a character who in real life is white.
And those were good performances.
Look, there are many examples in Hollywood history where a star was miscast b/c they were a star. John Wayne famously was cast as Ghangis Kahn. Charlton Heston was cast as Mexican. The Entire cast of the House of the Spirits, a story about Latinos, was white. MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA, a truly personal Japanese story, cast a bunch of Chinese actors in the lead roles. Jessica Alba was cast as a white, blond girl. How many times have White Brits been cast as Muslims, and most of the time they aren't big name stars?
So, my point is, this happens often. This isn't just limited to dark, skin black women.
After debating on these boards for a few weeks, I realize that many people are upset about this casting choice. I know I won't turn those away fda0rom that feeling. I guess I just want to present a counter point. This happens to all races more often than folks think, that independent film financing relies on stars to get their financing and can't take the risks Major Studios do casting unknowns and I guess that it's possible that the filmmakers did their search for the right actress and cast Zoe b/c in their opinion she was the best actress, albeit that doesn't bare the same physical characteristics. -
neelay123 — 10 years ago(March 15, 2016 04:13 PM)
The issue of skin colour in the film industry is not a conspiracy. Its a fact. It happened and it still happens. In the Hollywood golden era it was extremely difficult for black women to get big roles. And the women that were deemed worthy of being leading ladies were light skinned/mixed.
Watch this video of Lena Horn. Notice that the men can be dark skinned but the skinny pretty women have to be lighter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK3rdial_uw
Lena Horn
Dororthy Dandridge
Josephine Baker
Eartha Kitt
Are all these actresses that were deemed acceptably attractive in Hollywood due to their light skin. Vanita Smyth was an attractive woman and a great singer but she was too light 111cto play a mammy/ maid and too dark to be a leading lady.
And the within the famous cotton club black women had to be light skinned/mulatto to be considered chorus girls. So lets be clear this is not a conspiracy these are things that happened in history that still affect the industry today. So throwing around Viola Davis and Lupita as the go to for proving your point does nothing for me Im afraid. Viola is in her 50s and Lupita has had one major role playing a raped slave and another playing an orange midget. Shadism exists in the film industry.
So back to the this film. If you are using a light skinned actress to play a proud dark skinned woman how is that promoting dark skin?
I have seen what Nicole looked like before fame and she is still very much a pale skinned white woman. She might have freckles and rosy cheeks but she is not tanned or bronze. She is clearly white.
My point regarding Thandie Newton is that youre saying its just making and something actors have to do. But we are not there yet. Thandie is a light skinned mixed race woman with dainty pixie like features similar to Audrey. But she will never be considered to play that part because the film industry is just not there yet. They are okay with people getting darker. I.g Angelina Jolie. But you never see it the other way round.
You can bring up other films that I would agree with you on but talking specifically about THIS film and the casting and the issues the black actresses face in Hollywood it just further digs up the past. You mentioned other films. And again I do not agree with it. The last Air Bender, Dragon Ball, Annie. I personally believe we are just not there yet. The casting directors should have known what Ninas dark skin meant to her. -
Sweet_and_Lowdown77 — 10 years ago(March 16, 2016 02:18 PM)
By "just not there yet", what do you mean? Again, you want to ignore ALL the examples of dark skinned black women I've used. You don't want to discuss Ben Kingsley being darken2000ed to play Indian. You don't want to discuss the Rock being cast to play a real life white guy. You want to look the other way when I point out Chinese actors were cast as Japanese actors.
You believe a conspiracy ONLY exists with Dark Skinned Black Women.
You're wrong. The ONLY conspiracy "Hollywood" is guilty of is following the latest trends b/c it will make them $$$. Why cast the Rock to play a real life white guy? Because the Rock's star was on the rise. Why cast Chinese actors as Japanese? Because those actors were hot after CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON.
In 2009, Viola Davis was in 2 scenes (approx. 7 min) in Doubt and nominated for an Oscar. Yet the Academy is racist and there's a conspiracy to keep dark skinned women down? This was when Viola Davis wasn't a name either.
Did you see the link I posted? About Mary J. Blige passing?
Doesn't that prove to a certain extent the filmmakers tried to get someone who looked more like Nina, but that person dropped out? It says Zoe eventually got the part, but it's possible they went after other actresses as well before Zoe.
The filmmakers obviously felt they needed a "star" as most films - almost ALL low budget independent films - do. So, how many Black Female "Stars" in the world could've played this role?
And don't say Lupita Wyong'o. While she's the same skin tone, she looks nothing like Nina. We know Mary J. Blige passed. Viola Davis is 50 and judging from the time period the film is set would've been too old.
You'd rather no film about NINA be made at all than a film that the lead actress isn't dark skinned enough? If that's your stance, that's fine. I hate when they remake old films b/c financiers are too lazy and cowardly to make original material. I think it's boring & lazy filmmaking and on top of that, it's uninspiring. I was influenced by THE GODFATHER, GOODFELLAS, THE EXORCIST, THE FRENCH CONNECTION now the next generation will be inspired by a copy of a classic instead of the classic. I would rather no film gets made than a remake.
So I understand your argument. -
neelay123 — 10 years ago(March 16, 2016 04:38 PM)
When I say we are not there yet I mean that industry is not at a place where everyone can just play whatever part they want. There are social and historical things that come into play. Youve used TWO examples of dark skinned black women. Sorry but that just is not enough to convince me that things are equal. I have already given you a brief history on the film industry and its treatment of women of colour.
And its not that Im trying to ignore memoirs or Ghandi because believe me I have my own issues with Asian casting in cinema but I just dont want to go off topic. This is a very specific subject and each casting is different and has their own individual pros and cons.
I dont believe that a conspiracy only exists with dark skinned women because I dont believe there is a conspiracy to begin with. These are just facts within the industry. You might think its all about the money but history will tell you otherwise.
And I new Mary J Blige was in the running for a long time to play Nina. And of course Lupita is not a good choice to play Nina.
Given everything that I have mentioned I would have preferred that the filmmakers at least respect Ninas legacy enough to not darken an actresses skin to play her. That goes against everything Nina stood for. Zoe could have done the film without it and just embodies Nina through her acting. But Im open to giving this film a chance. -
Sweet_and_Lowdown77 — 10 years ago(March 17, 2016 10:33 AM)
Now that I understand. About the darkening. IMO, that makes for a rational explanation to be upset.
As I stated many times, if I felt Zda0oe was the best actress I could get for the role, I would've simply let her look like herself ala Fassbender in Steve Jobs.
Good chat. -
Sweet_and_Lowdown77 — 10 years ago(March 15, 2016 10:00 AM)
I just found this article. It states that the filmmakers originally cast Mary J. Blige, but she DROPPED out.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/03/nina-cynthia-mort-controversy
So, IMO, this tells me the filmmakers tried to cast someone who shared more physical similarities with Nina, but she dropped out. At that point, they cast Zoe.
It sounds like the film had issues. When stars drop out and the director has to sue the production, it's never a good sign. -
JDJSmith — 9 years ago(June 24, 2016 06:13 AM)
Totally agree. What a joke. The whole obsession with her not being latin too when her parents are Dominican. Its really sad. She looks good. Its like the African American community is trying to drag her down for it.
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The-CreepyThinMan — 9 years ago(July 19, 2016 04:24 AM)
OP, I agree with everything you said, especially about Trump becoming President. I wrote an article about Ghostbusters 2016 and the SJW's that you might like.
http://247365hatemachine.blogspot.ca/2016/07/ghostbusters-and-social-justice-warrior.html