OT: Off topic
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Aethelflaed-918 — 18 years ago(December 01, 2007 05:11 AM)
Thank you for posting the message, very thought provoking!
I'll follow banuisce's splendid example and let you know that there's a taker here too. Just let me get the Saturday shopping out of the way and I'll get back to you this evening (British time!) -
Soccer_lady — 18 years ago(December 01, 2007 08:38 AM)
On another forum I recently got involved in a chat about books that are being turned into movies. I don't know if you're into the sci-fi/fantasy genre of literature, but the one movie that has been getting mixed reviews is the film adaptation of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" triology (The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass). On the forum I made the curious observation that while the books are categorized as Adult Fantasy in the US, in the UK they were categorized as Children's Literature. I found this out when I bought the first book in the US and took it with me when I traveled to England. When I had finished it and while still on vacation, I bought the second and third books in Salisbury. That's when I discovered the difference in categorization. Although in many respects the books are classic fantasy, there are also strong religious (or anti-religious I should say) undertones throughout. It was my thought that perhaps the Brits and most Europeans are more open about exposing their children to such "adult" themes, hence why such a book would be found in the children's section. Americans are typically uptight and very narrow-minded when it comes to influencing young children's minds about such things. 5b4I know it's completely off topic, but I thought it would be interesting to get your opinion about it, should you have one.
I've read that 2 kids kill god in the Golden Compass and that's why so many people are against the movie.
Is that true?? -
Soccer_lady — 18 years ago(December 01, 2007 12:19 PM)
Here's where I've read it:
http://snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp -
IndigoCloud — 18 years ago(December 01, 2007 01:20 PM)
I've read that 2 kids kill god in the Golden Compass and that's why so many people are against the movie.
Yes and no. It's true that there are controversial anti-religious themes in the books, although this doesn't become obvious until the last book in the trilogy. The plot is very complicated so it would take awhile to explain in depth and I read the series over 5 years ago, so I can't recall all the details. However, I do remember that the concept of "God" is approached differently in the books. From what I remember, "God" as he is represented in the story, is a very ancient being whose health and influence has been slowly deteriorating over the centuries. He both physically and spiritually lacks sufficient power to rule and so has been kind of pushed out of the way and forgotten about. Meanwhile, there are angels, some good and some bad which are fighting for control of Heaven. I don't remember if the children actually physically kill "God" or they kill the most corrupt of the angels, Metatron. Maybe they kill them both, but the point is that in the book "God" is no longer the one in charge and the ones who are have abused his power.
Mind you, this doesn't happen until the third book (The Amber Spyglass)from what I remember and I don't know if this movie is going to deal primarily with the first book or if they'll try to get all three books into one movie. For the sake of2000 trying to keep the movie accurate to the books, I hope they decide to do all three books separately. From what I've heard the religious aspects will of course be dumbed down and perhaps completely omitted to make it more appealing to a wider audience. The article that you read is very biased as it doesn't sound like the author read the books first, so she's criticizing the movie unfairly. There were Christian groups saying the same thing about Harry Potter and the evils of magic and witchcraft when those books and the movies became popular. I think there was even a series of "Christian wizard" books that came out in opposition to the Harry Potter series, aimed at replacing HP's influence with so-called positive Christian values in a similar fantasy setting. I remember hearing about this kind of thing in the US, but I wonder if this kind of religious fanaticism with children's lit is prevalent in other parts of the world? -
banuisce — 18 years ago(December 01, 2007 06:21 PM)
Having lived on both sides of the Atlantic, I say unequivocally yes, the Brits and Europeans are far more open minded and tolerant of a wider range of ideologies than we Americans.
We are still 'a Christian' country, don't pounce yet. We were founded by deeply religious people, who came here seeking religious freedom, religion is embedded in the deepest core of our social, political and cultural fabric. Christian beliefs are the very foundation on which we were built and in large part, still dominate these areas. You don't have to wander too far in the South to still find that woman who won't socialize with her neighbor because she doesn't attend the same church. Trust me, when famous US atheist Madelyn Murray O'Hare (sp? always muss it up) showed up in a barrel of acid where she'd been fermenting for years, there was more cheering than grieving in these parts.
I can't name a major religious group that advocates tolerance of the other and certainly none that condone disbelief in any form. If you can, I will defer as corrected.
When in the UK, there were already substantial numbers of non Christian immigrants from India and Pakistan, there were still open enclaves of gypsy's, a Wiccan presence, etcetera. The UK and Europe have been evolving rather longer than we have in simple truth, moved beyond such historical phases as absolute monarchies, state religions and recovered from dictatorships. The culture I experienced, repeat for emphasis- I experienced and thus this is framed from my one view- bore none of the marks of Puritanism that still held strong sway in the US. (circa early 80's)
Nudity was not a shame, in fact is was on Page 3 of a daily paper. The reality of death was not masked, if someone got blown up in Ireland, you may just see their arm sticking out from under the tarp, not the sanitized bloodless scene one would see at home. The locals I knew would talk about anything and weren't particularly sensitive that I recall. They seemed more- pragmatic and- hmmm- aware. The perfect word eludes me at the moment. They just had a different, to me refreshing, attitude towards life. It changes, get on with it.
Christian America, against whom I hold no special contempt, fears loss of control, of power, of 'their' way and values. I've not read the books, but by your synopsis, I can see where they would be offended by someone suggesting that the inmates have taken over the asylum, or in this case, the institution. I cite persons such as Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, whose personalities became larger than their religion per se. Disbelief erodes their importance and influence, they would not want their legacy diminished by the idea that there is no God or that their God can be disposed of and while these people still have a hand in our politics, culture and society, there will be resistance to and decrying of any other belief- or disbelief. Perhaps one day we will outgrow them, evolve to a more open minded state, but not just yet. I don't see Mr. Pullman's books being moved to the children's section any time soon.
Fire at will. -
Anjaali — 18 years ago(December 04, 2007 09:00 AM)
From the perspective of someone who lives in the UK and is not of the Christian faith i would like to add a little something to your post if i may?
I can unequivocally testify that the people and the government of the UK are extremely tolerant of other religions and lifestyles and i am extremely proud of living in such a liberal minded and open-minded country. Of course it was not always so friendly whilst immigrants and the indiginous population adapted to each other in the 1960's and 1970's and i can personally relate various tales of intolerance and racial abuse but those times are long past. (Not that i was around through both decades i want to point out!)
The situation now is vastly different and in some ways i think the pendulum of political correctness has swung too far in the ob68pposite direction. The Government bend over backwards to accomodate faiths other than Christianity to the detriment of the Christian population. I, as a Sikh, can celebrate Vasaikhi and parade down the street with banners and flags of MY religion yet Christians cannot walk down the street with the Union Jack in case it upsets others faiths due to its preceived links to a far right nationalist party. One year, here in Birmingham, the local council decided to celebrate "Winterval" rather than Christmas in case the sensibilities of non-christians were offended! However, saying all that, i can absolutely state that i would prefer to live in a country that is too liberal rather than one that is not liberal enough.
One marked difference that i can see between the US and the UK is that, and this is purely my opinion, everyone seems to be far more vocal about their religion in the US. Worship seems to be very much a large part of life with much mention of it and the Church and God seem to play a large part in peoples lives. I can only think of one religious programme on a Sunday morning in the UK compared to the numerous US channels on cable TV.
Religion seems to be much more a personal thing in the UK. Maybe we in the UK, are more cynicalmaybe we are more reservedbut mostly i think we trust in ourselves rather than God!
However, whilst i have visited America i cannot say that i have truly experienced anything of its true face so i will put my hands up and defer to anyone who wants to set me straight.. -
banuisce — 18 years ago(December 05, 2007 04:36 AM)
I've no argument with your observations at all. Mind you, I live in 'the Bible belt', in a town with a thriving and active church going population plus a university that by virtue of it's diverse populous offers opportunities to learn about other than your garden variety Catholic and Protestant faiths. You can still say Christmas around here, the related city festival still bears the name, my route to work takes me past- oh- five places of worship, two literally at the foot of the campus. While there is no official Mosque, the Islamic student group held a series of open houses to promote understanding (during Ramadan if I recall) at their house used for worship. We have a 'free speech' area on campus which is frequently used for gatherings of many faiths to give others the opportunity to ask questions. I won't say we represent 5b4the true face, but we certainly have an active and open religious body both on campus and in the community. I feel very fortunate actually because I'm the type of person who likes to hear it from the horses mouth, not just read about it, on any topic and here, I do not have to look far or hard to find a living example to question.
Don't get me started on political correctness, I also hold that it has swung too far, to the point of creating an environment of over sensitivity in which contrarily- nothing is tolerated. Does that make sense? My personal intolerance is to racist language, very open about it, but even as a non Christian, I feel for those who are that feel they are being suffocated by PC. A bit of the sins of the fathers being played out sometimes I think, backlash for those who followed 'manifest destiny' over the dead bodies and rights of others, who tolerated nothing and no one who was not of their exact mind- or color. I also think one would be hard pressed to find a nation that does not have a history of brutality in the name of 'God' at some point.
My cpu cooler is either possessed or the bearings are burning out, I'll need to dismantle it in the next day or so for replacement search and repair. Self built, fortunately, one of those benefits of my environment is access to 'tech' guys and the comely young men at a local computer store handy at finding things no longer on the shelf. The sound of it is an 16d0utter distraction from serious thought. If I am absent a time, it's due to round cursing and foul mood associated with technical difficulties I needed like a hole in the head. I've been having a spate of both sentient and mechanical entites going ill on me for the last couple weeks, so this is no surprise at all.
Take care. -
cali_falcon70 — 18 years ago(December 07, 2007 08:39 AM)
I have to say I'm one of those Christians who gets really pissed off at all the political correctness when it comes to religion. Why is it that every other religion can get up and say whatever they want, do whatever they want, and yet if WE did the same thing, we'd be accused of being oppressive and violating other religion's rights?! I think the reverse is now true.
In my hometown, (in the U.S.), we have a celebration called "Christmas on the Square" along with a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn. Three years ago a very vocal "Pagan" sued the city for violating his "religious" rights and not separating church and state. The city worked out a compromise where he could display his "winter solstice" scene on the courthouse lawn along with the nativity scene; however, the city would NOT change the name of our festival to suit him. Our community applauded the city's decision. The non-christians have taken away prayer in our schools, prayer before football games and have even tried to ban the "Fellowship of Christian Athletes" organization. Our community had finally had enough and took a stand. Majority ruled in this case and I, for one, am pleased at the outcome.
I'm all for religious freedom. I think everyone should be able to worship (or not) in whatever manner they see fit. But DON'T try to take away my rights as a Christian to do the same.
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. By the way, I'm so glad all the bickering stopped on this board. Everyone must be in the "holiday" spirit! I hope it lasts!!!!
Cali -
banuisce — 18 years ago(December 07, 2007 03:37 PM)
Hello again Cali, good to see you and hear from you. We put the box out for everyone, glad you stepped up to offer a Christian view.
My natural curiosity leads me to wonder if the pagan fellow even troubled himself to ask the city about placing his solstice display in addition to the nativity before he went legal? -
cali_falcon70 — 18 years ago(December 08, 2007 08:49 PM)
The guy had his attorney ask the city to remove the Nativity Scene. The attorney wrote a letter to the city citing their failure to separate church and state. When the city refused the attorney's request and offered a compromise, the attorney filed the lawsuit on behalf of his client. In the end, the judge ruled that the courthouse lawn was a public place and belonged to everyone; therefore, the Nativity Scene could stay and the Winter Solstice Sign could also be displayed.
This guy really didn't care two hoots about putting up his Winter Solstice message; he simply wanted the Nativity Scene removed. However, he went ahead and had a sign created and put it up because he'd have egg on his face if he didn't! So far, no one in the community has objected to HIS sign.not one person! Isn't THAT interesting?
Another interesting side notehe's still not satisfied with the outcome. Every year he files the same lawsuit. Every year the city and a judge come to the same conclusion. And every year it costs the taxpayers money.
But, there IS a silver lining to this story. He never succeeds in dampening our community's Christmas Spirit! Who knows.maybe if he'd join in our Christmas celebrations he might learn something new anb68d have fun in the process! Nobody wants to "convert" him. We just want him to respect our right to celebrate our beliefs. Now, really.is that too much to ask?
Cali -
banuisce — 18 years ago(December 09, 2007 05:10 PM)
No, unfortunately less and less people honor such an asking, to respect each other. Curiosity is sated, thanks. It sounds like your community has handled the complaint and issue with aplomb, I hope they will retain their spirit- and patience in the years to come.
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Aethelflaed-918 — 18 years ago(December 09, 2007 05:41 PM)
Not wishing to put the cat amongst the pigeons here but I'm surprised that this chap with his pagan beliefs has so much trouble accepting the Christian Christmas, after all it is ostensibly an amalgamation of several pagan winter festivals that were adapted and adopted by the early church fathers to encourage pagan Romans to convert to Christianity. You would think he would know this and therefore accept the festivities perhaps as a continuation of his own beliefs?
The trouble is of course that he has a 21st century mindset and understanding of what so called "pagan" beliefs are grafted on to modern religious sensibilities from a Pilgrim culture! I can imagine that they don't make for easy bedfellows!!