Is 'Dream of Desire' the bio to read?
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catlady1412 — 17 years ago(February 28, 2009 09:54 PM)
I read Emily Leider's book and it seemed to be well researched, but I found the most interesting was the hard-to-find book by George Ullman, his manager who was with Rudy when he died. Of course, Ullman does not address the gay rumors as this book was done in 1927 or 1928, but he does talk about the Rudy he knew and observed in interactions with other people, especially Natacha and he covers the end of the marriage too. I left that book feeling I really liked Rudy, that he was a good man with good intentions who was utterly bewildered by his fame and quite modest. That book tends to run $30 and up on ebay and Amazon because it is out of print and rare, but I found it worth the money!
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catlady1412 — 17 years ago(March 24, 2009 03:30 AM)
I think David Bret's book would be a fun trashy read along the lines of Hollywood Babylon, not a bit of truth, but wouldn't it be fun if it were?
Many people believe that Valentino was gay but the historical 5b4evidence is not there. He is linked with Ramon Novarro, but there is nothing to indicate they even met, no letters, no photographs together. They have one film credit together and that is The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, a huge epic film, where Rudy was one of the leads and Ramon was an extra, just starting out. If anyone has seen a photo of them together that has not been doctored, I would love to see that. I have not even found a newspaper article of the period placing them in the same room. Novarro was too closeted to have claimed to have been with Valentino in any public way. Another one linked to him was George Raft, because they looked alike, but again, it is uncertain that Valentino ever even met Raft, who made movies after Rudy's death. Valentino had a very short life to work in all these lovers that people like to claim. The other man most closely linked with Valentino was his roommate Paul Ivano, and he denied they were lovers. Valentino's manager believed that Rudy was deeply attached to his wife, that he was devastated when she left him and the pictures in the paper when she left for her divorce show them both to have puffy swollen eyes and thin smiles for the cameras. So Rudy could have been gay, but if he was, he took the secret to his grave and left no paper trail to confirm it. Whatever else he was, Valentino seems to have been a good man doing his best in a tough world and he left behind some great movies5b4 and images to enjoy. Everything else is just gossip. -
annadane — 17 years ago(March 24, 2009 04:09 PM)
I think its a fantasy thingValentino was obviously good looking and fine as can beso claiming him for the team why not? I think in addition the gay crap might have came from the 'effeminate' rumors around him. When he became a star (particularly with The Sheik) average white Joe of America did not like him very muchand they called him ladylike for wearing baggy COSTUMES which they seen as a effeminate. In his real life he was extremely well dressed but never effeminate. And effeminate does not equal gay (Rock Hudson)thats just a stereotype and funny anyone would want to link the two as solid evidence.
As said by catlady there is just no evidence he ever was even remotely close to bi let alone gay. He hung with open circles but gay by association doesnt work either (and even at that he eventually moved away from the Rambova circle to the more mainstream Hollywood circle: Fairbanks and Chaplin and such). He married a woman before he was famous, and was devastated (and didnt seem to undertand the gay thing at that) that she didnt love him (and yes we have letters to prove that for history).
He married Natacha and stuck by her like a puppy dogeven when it was detrimental to his career (maybe being married to a strong woman also made him appear 'effeminate'). When she left him he was devastated, and their breakdown is pretty well documented (like the night of his award for artistic merit ceremony in front of all of Hollywood). He was devastated.
I think its funny how the rags cant get it right: is he gay or was he a player or was he a Sheik in real life? Hollywood Babylon says hes not only gay (and gave Novarro a dildo which appears no where in the records of history including police reports), but through orgy parties when Natacha left. Its quite simple: Valentino was not the Sheik, he was not the man on the screen. He was a simple quiet man who was very quite tame and simple in his love affairs (I mean emotional wise). Projecting what gossip hounds want on him will never hold up to historyno matter how delicious they find it. -
cnicknz — 14 years ago(July 09, 2011 02:15 PM)
To assume anyone famousincluding Valentinowasn't gay because there's no proof is absurd. Lest we forget how taboo that subject was in the twenties. Lots of guys and gals were gayjust as there are plenty todayit was so closeted, however, that little "evidence" exists. Valentino is now pretty much believed to be at least bisexual, and so what?
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metalman091 — 14 years ago(March 25, 2012 05:59 AM)
To assume anyone famousincluding Valentinowasn't gay because there's no proof is absurd. Lest we forget how taboo that subject was in the twenties. Lots of guys and gals were gayjust as there are plenty todayit was so closeted, however, that little "evidence" exists. Valentino is now pretty much believed to be at least bisexual, and so what?
No one has claimed it wasn't true, just that there is no way of knowing for certain. This is a common problem on, not only Valentino's board, but other stars. No one is denying the possibility of Valentino [or any one else] of being bisexual, but you have to admit we have come to a dead end and will most likely never proceed beyond it. I am not comfortable with putting a label on him or anyone else without any basis.
It is not generally believed that Valentino was bisexual. David Bret, Darwin Porter and others such as they may think so, but none of Valentino's friends238 did. -
catlady1412 — 17 years ago(March 24, 2009 05:54 PM)
Yes, I believe Natacha being a strong woman caused plenty of gossip, plus her associaton with a known lesbian caused gossip that she was lesbian as well and Rudy was an ignorant dupe who either did not know she was gay or else he was using her as a beard, none of which is remotely substantiated by a paper trail either, just another story in Hollywood Babylon. Remember, when Rudy became a star, Wally Reid had been the typical American Male with the strawboater hat and aw-shucks persona that made Rudy seem suspect to rural America. Back then, Italian was not necessarily considered "white" in terms of race either, so American males felt Rudy was encroaching on "their" women and I think they secretly felt they did not measure up, in all its phallic implications, to him. Plus Rudy was so well dressed, so carefully put together and he wore Natacha's slave bracelet without a thought since Italian men had no problems with jewelry, that I think American men really could not relate to him and resented his hold on American women. I see a great deal of appeal to Rudy when I watch his films. He had a physical presence, a definite elegance in his movements and a soulful face that makes him jump off the screen! What ordinary guy would want to compete with that? So maybe if they could imply he did not really want the very women who adored him?
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metalman091 — 16 years ago(October 07, 2009 06:32 PM)
In Emily W. Leider's well researched bio, it appears that Rudy was not really a sexual person (meaning he didn't chase everything in skirts). He really seemed to believe that there was one woman meant for him. The world revolved around Natacha Rambova and he couldn't forget her.
Leider does mention though that Rudy and Andre Daven could have been involved together. They went on a fishing trip together to Florida in 1924 without Natacha. Daven's letter says that they had a restful time away from the bright lights and stress of movie-making. Daven returned to France (where he came from) and explained in another letter that the reasons he left were too delicate to explain but that "Nothing has been broken- on the contrary". Leider wonders if Daven felt that he and Rudy had become too attached to one another.
David Bret insists in his book 'Valentino: A Dream Of Desire' that Jacques Hebertot was interested in Valentino sexually and that the two became an item. Hebertot apparently was homosexual and never tried to hide it because he didn't have to.
Bret gives his source as an unpublished manuscript by one of Hebertot's male lovers in the 1940's named Roger Normand (actor and singer) who claimed to be repeating tales that Hebertot told him about Valentino.
Bret's arguments are weakened by scant documentation and carelessness about facts. There is a photo of Rudy, Natacha and his brother Alberto. Bret identifies Alberto as Andre Daven. What Bret doesn't realize is that every tale of sexual conquest (second hand gossip) has a basis in reality.
That information was found in Leider's book on pages 271-3.Rudy and Andre may have had an affair, but there is nothing concrete about it.
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annadane — 16 years ago(October 10, 2009 02:50 AM)
I wouldnt say Rudy wasnt sexual, and while Emily's bio isnt perfect its the best you're gonna get in the Rudy world.
Bret makes things up, and his sources are not only unconfirmed but half the time are imaginary. Alice Terry told Anthony Slide how Rudy and Pola were both gay (despite some solid evidence to the contrary), and Miriam Cooper, Frederica Sagor Maas, and a few others insisted well to the end of their lives they KNEW Fatty Arbuckle was guilty (Maas is still alive shockingly, but neither woman knew him well or was in attendance on that infamous night). My point? Anyone can say anything, you might need a little more proof than that. Herbotrot could fantasize all he likes, and to add to it we have no proof he ever wrote thatjust Bret's word. Frankly David Bret should be shot in the face for what he does to dead celebs (look at poor Jean Harlow)hes almost as bad as Kenneth Anger.
I'd like to remind you all that the 'Rudy is gay' rumors didnt start until the 1960s when the retroactive self proclaimed ''authors'' started that crap. I think if he was gay or bi we would have had more proof, ala Ramon Novarro or William Haines. -
metalman091 — 16 years ago(October 10, 2009 10:00 PM)
Billy Wilder? I never knew that.
I agree that David Bret is the worst. His books on Joan Crawford, Rock Hudson etc should be avoided. There is a big crop of these writers, Bret, Darwin Porter, Kenneth Anger and William Mann. I don't take their "work" seriously. -
annadane — 16 years ago(October 11, 2009 08:00 PM)
OOPS my bad sorry; I meant William Hainesand I was thinking of Billy West (a silent actor)man I messed that up :p! No I believe Billy Wilder was straight.
**Is annoyed she just googled to correct the name and found several 'Valentino was surely gay and so was his wives references'. For the record Natacha Rambova was not gay or bisexual either. -
metalman091 — 16 years ago(October 13, 2009 05:36 AM)
Oh yes William Haines, Popular screen star and later a successful decorator.
Of course Valentino never left a paper trail behind to confirm that he was gay and neither did his wives. A lot of people believe this stuff because they want to believe it. -
annadane — 16 years ago(October 13, 2009 09:51 PM)
Its not even a paper trailno one from the 20s had anything of the sort to say. In fact the only one I've ever heard say Rudy was gay was Alice Terry in the 60s (conveniently when some trashy bios had started spreading that) to whats his faceAnthony Slide. By Terry was the widow of Rex Ingramand the two of them literally destroyed their careers trying to one up him (including 'discovering' Ramon Novarro, and sticking him in films like "The Arab").
Jean Acker was definitely a lesbian, and letters and her actions verify as such (Nazimova wrote she was not happy about the quickie marriage and that she would destroy her). BUT Natacha lived until the 60s, and remarried a man who looked like Rudy, wrote many letters and a few books, and had people around her. Not a one of them says she was even bi (though there is a slight opening for Mecerdes de Costa, like one could make about Andre Davenunlikely but maaaaaybe once). In fact Natacha told a friend she 'despised' lesbians in the 40s (ironic because many of her friends were as such).
If Rudy had a ton of male affairs or gay inklings there would be some references, something. As it standsnot one shred of evidence or even first hand accounts from anyone believable (I dont count Terry or Herbetrot believable about anything). -
metalman091 — 16 years ago(October 15, 2009 06:01 PM)
I agree that there would be some references by his contemporaries if he were gay. It's the same kind of thing when you read about such stars as Cary Grant, Gary Cooper, Tyrone Power, Burt Lancaster and Barbara Stanwyck. There was never a trace of evidence during their life time and most of their friends have denied the rumors.
But people still ignore the lack of evidence for more sensational gossip. -
metalman091 — 16 years ago(October 17, 2009 06:41 PM)
People are idiots sometimes. Correctiona lot of the time.
That is indeed very true.
It does seem to apply to every star. They go from major stars to the stars who are little known today. A few authors go on the idea that every Hollywood star was gay, and people eat it up. -
annadane — 16 years ago(December 06, 2009 11:43 PM)
This guy is crazy as a loonlook at his mindset:
http://www.forgetthetalkies.com/2009/12/dream-of-kookiness-david-bret- and.html