How come Vertigo replaced this as #1 on the Sight & Sound poll?
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frantruff — 11 years ago(March 16, 2015 09:02 PM)
A few reasons:
- The voting took place either during or shortly after the BFI (no, not that one) had hosted a massive Hitchcock retrospective.
- Citizen Kane fatigue, by which I mean CK had been topping the list for 50 years straight, and some people just wanted to see something else take its place for a change. This one seemed to affect Battleship Potemkin, too, since it dropped out of the top 10 in favor of Man With The Movie Camera.
- I've read a few articles that argue film critics are more likely to relate to the characters in Vertigo than in CK.
Strangely enough, even though Hitchcock is considered the ultimate film director by quite a few people, Vertigo didn't do as well in the directors' poll, which was topped by Tokyo Story. Interestingly, Kane was #2 on both lists.
BTW, no film was mentioned by more than a third of the voters, so even the #1 film isn't considered one of the top 10 greatest films by a majority.
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thefly50 — 11 years ago(March 17, 2015 08:28 AM)
It's quite an insightful comment, frantruff. I did not know much of it. I do have quite a bit to say about these things, though.
The BFI retrospective does make sense as a reason, but I am also quite puzzled Vertigo's #2 spot on 2002's poll. What led critics put it over, say, The Rules of the Game (Which, if you ask me, is the film that deserves the top spot if you
must
dethrone Citizen Kane) or Tokyo Story?
I know that it almost became a cliche that Citizen Kane is the greatest film of all time and that it had to be replaced, for lack of predictability. But again, why Vertigo?
(I must mention that I think Vertov's film is better than Eisenstein's. It's aged much better and it carries much more value nowadays than Potemkin. Perhaps MWMC is less influential, but it exhibits the art of filmmaking at least as well).
I can't see how can critics find more to relate to with Vertigo than in CK. Maybe it's the fact that CK is dealing with newspapers and the critic gets fired? This makes little sense, but I can't think of any other reason. -
marcshank-388-582372 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 11:16 PM)
It really is quite simple. Citizen Kane is a remarkable achievement, yes, and I agree with you about The Rules of the Game being a worthy alternative, although I do think Casablanca is a better alternative than another great one, The Tokyo Story.
But let's face it. It's the story behind Citizen Kane that confirms it's number one status. Fans and students of film are usually stunned when they read about it origins, from the invasion from Mars to Hurst and Davies' crazy parties that gave Herman Mankiewicz the idea to begin with, to Greg Toland's breakthrough cinematography to Bernard Herman's remarkable score (interesting how he also did the score for Vertigo).
When all of that is taken into consideration, the story behind Vertigo, or for that matter Tokyo and Rules pales by comparison.
Also remarkable is my ultimate Citizen Kane trivia question (no cheating please): How many times did Charles Foster Kane say the word "Rosebud" in the movie? You are required to precisely describe the number of times and the scene, or scenes, where he said it. Reply to marcshank@gmail.com. -
theuserformerlyknownasfrantruff — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 08:03 AM)
Yep, it's the ultimate story of artistic integrity vs pressure form the producers. Sometimes it's overromanticized to the point it's almost impossible to separate the "Orson Welles Narrative" from his films. The man was hardly the only one to find difficulties in getting funding for his films. One thing I'm glad about CK being "dethroned" is that it might led to the hagiography around Orson's "unfulfilled potential" decreasing and people finally praising him for his actual accomplishments. Though that's probably wishful thinking. In the wider critic-aproved narrative, he'll probably forever remain "the guy who did 'CK' and then saw the producers destroy 'Ambersons' and 'Touch of Evil'", rather than the guy who did extraordinary and innovative films like "Othello" and "F For Fake" after Kane.
By the way, Casablanca and Rules both have their own fairly interesting narratives. The first one is "the exception to the Auteur theory" and "basically made itself", while the second one is almost always seen as a prelude to WWII, was banned by the Nazis, was the last (before exile) and least-succesful picture of a man who had spend the previous decade making highly succesful ones and offended the French society so much someone tried to burn down the theater it was playing in its opening night (I think Renoir described all of this as "Dancing on a volcano").
CFK says Rosebud twice. The first one at the very beginning of the film and the second one during the butler's flashback, after trashing Susan's room. -
moviemadness2012 — 10 years ago(March 17, 2016 11:33 AM)
It was not a surprise to many because in past S&S polls, Vertigo had been gaining on CK in votes. In the 2002 poll, Vertigo only trailed by a few votes. So many people including myself actually predicted a Vertigo victory in 2012. Maybe the newer generations of critics have different tastes. In the coming years or decades, Vertigo will likewise be overtaken by another film.
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thefly50 — 11 years ago(March 17, 2015 10:00 PM)
Personally speaking, I think Vertigo has no place at the top spot. I know that many people don't like Citizen Kane, but it simply deserves the #1 spot. It is the most important film ever made, and it comes as close to perfection as human art can.
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MsELLERYqueen2 — 11 years ago(March 17, 2015 10:59 PM)
I like
Vertigo
, but I think that it's not one of Hitchcock's very best. I prefer
Rope
.
Given a choice between
Citizen Kane
and
Who's Minding the Mint
(1967), I'll take
Who's Minding the Mint
in a second (along with the adorable leading actor).
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen -
thefly50 — 11 years ago(March 18, 2015 09:32 AM)
I
do
think Vertigo is one of Hitchcock's best, but not
the
best (No. 1 is Rear Window, No. 2 is North by Northwest, Vertigo is a solid No. 3). It is his most radical and perhaps even the most personal, but not the best.
And I thought I'm the only one who has seen that obscurity, Who's Minding the Mint. From what I can remember (which is not much), it was a caper-comedy of sorts, I think, with the actor that appears on your signature. I caught it on TV (as I did with CK), and I didn't really like it. I didn't find it funny at all. But hey, if you love it that much, more power to you! -
thefly50 — 11 years ago(March 18, 2015 02:51 PM)
I've never been much into old Hollywood (or its modern counterpart, for that matter), other than exactly those kinds of films that get film snobs like myself a massive erection. I don't remember when was the last time I watched a Golden Age obscurity, one that wasn't released by The Criterion Collection and/or made by Welles/Capra/Wilder/Wyler/Sturges/Mankiewicz/any of the other big ones.
I am generally more acquainted with French cinema of the time, and even in that field I'm sure few of these films approach obscurity. Simply put, I still haven't watched all the classics so I can move on to stuff less well-known. -
thomas-begen-194-976045 — 10 years ago(May 05, 2015 02:25 PM)
Personally, I think Hitchcock messed the bed on "Vertigo." Stewart and Novak were miscast as far as I'm concerned. Not unlike many of his films, Hitchcock doesn't seem to know how to end "Vertigo." The ending ruined an already poor film for me. I take very little away from "Vertigo" in the way of meaning or a moral.
Since you're a Hitch fan, what about "Rebecca" and "The Birds"? Personally, those are two of my favorite Hitchcock films. I like "North By Northwest," but I feel "Psycho" and "Rear Window" are probably the his overrated. -
thomas-begen-194-976045 — 10 years ago(May 06, 2015 11:41 AM)
Since this question is hypothetical, I'll try to answer it as best I can and briefly. By the time of "Vertigo," Veronica was no longer relevant. She ceased to be relevant with the end of the 1940s. Since you mention it, if it were possible, I think Lake in her prime would've been much better than Kim Novak, who I am adamant was miscast. Come to think of it, I wonder why Lake was never cast in a Hitchcock film, given she was a beautiful Hitchcockian blonde. Perhaps it was her height or due to contracts. I think she would have done fine in one of his films.
Since what you're asking was basically impossible because Lake was no longer relevant in the early- to mid-1950s, I have a few other suggestions. On IMDB's "Vertigo" page it states Hitch wanted Vera Miles for the part. I believe she would have been a much better fit. However, a better Hitchcock blonde may've been Tippi Hedren, who would star in "Marnie" and "The Birds" only a few years later. He also remarks that James Stewart was too old for the part, which I agree. I don't have any suggestions except that I definitely wouldn't want Cary Grant in another movie making out with a woman half his age.
All that said, these casting choices weren't the only thing wrong with this movie. I believe much of it was poorly executed, especially the ending, which people either love or hate. Originally, "Vertigo" got slammed. It's only recently that it's been considered one of Hitch's great films. I'm more of a classicist and I have to disagree. I don't think very highly of "Citizen Kane" but if the battle for first on Sight and Sound's list of great films is between these two films I would have to side with "Citizen Kane."
By the way, Veronica Lake is in no way my favorite actress or the one I find most beautiful. I just like the picture. I'll change it soon enough. -
thefly50 — 11 years ago(March 18, 2015 09:20 AM)
I was just thinking about that (Even without your comment). I was quite tired when writing that. Sorry. Yes, I guess you're right. But Griffith's film is one that has aged
atrociously
. The length, the racism, and pretty much everything else in it prevents me from recommending it to anyone but people who are interested in the history of cinema. It is a relic, a monument. Its sole worth nowadays is historical (And I'll be damned before saying such a thing about Citizen Kane). It's (rightly) accused of racism, and its reputation perhaps made people forget that there have been feature films way before it (The Story of the Kelly Gang), and even in America (The Squaw Man, anyone?). But yeah, BoaN is a more important film than CK.