Sexual tension between young Charlie and old Charlie?
-
Forlorn_Rage — 10 years ago(August 04, 2015 09:39 PM)
A great point that Charles charmed his niece in the same way that he treated those widows. He liked her fine, while she was nice and useful to soothe his vanity. But, once she became a threat to him, she became nothing more than what those widows were to him and started scheming to kill her.
I enjoyed reading your post. You brought up excellent points! -
IrishLass240 — 18 years ago(September 23, 2007 03:58 AM)
I think it is revolting that anyone would imply sexual tension between the uncle and niece. The uncle is far too smart to allow anything of that sort to detract from his desire to find a quiet place to disappear. It's the most natural thing in the world for a young girl "with stars in her eyes" to be excited to see her uncle from the "big city". I would bet that if this forum was started when the film first came out, no one at that time would have ever thought such a thing. I think you are all trying to interpret the film and Hitchcock's intentions from a vantage point too far removed from the reality of that time.
IrishLass
"He was a bad man. a very bad man, so I put his head on the Jack-in-the-box so everyone could see".
(Billy Mumy/Anthony)
"Please son, send him to the cornfield, please."
(Twilight Zone, "It's a Good Life")
^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^ -
capricious_nature — 18 years ago(September 23, 2007 04:14 AM)
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but the implicit sexual nature of the two Charlies relationship is difficult to ignore. Hitchcock consistently explored the dark sides of human natureif he can explore sexual jealousy between sons and mothers (Psycho, The Birds, Notorious, etc.) why not between uncles and nieces? Uncle Charlie gives Young Charlie a ring he took from the hand of one of his female victims, placing it on her finger like a wedding ringin fact, it was the dead woman's wedding ring. He exercises his power over her, even to the point of attempting to murder her when a rival appears on the scene. Young Charlie in turn speaks of her uncle almost in terms of a lover ("We're more than an uncle and niece"). She's proud that her friends see her with her handsome uncle. But she ultimately rejects the perverted relationship for that of a normal, if more boring, one.
As for the interpretations to be put on it in the time it was made, I think you underestimate the time period. Ten years later we have "Suddenly Last Summer," "Baby Doll," "The Three Faces of Eve", etc. Five years later, Hitchcock treats of a sadistic, implicitly homosexual relationship in "Rope." Pre-code films also explored dark sexuality, sadism and incest. I think the people of the time would have looked on Shadow of a Doubt as disturbing, and I'm equally certain that they would have known precisely what the relationship between the Charlies implies.
~I cannot fiddle, but I can make a great state of a small city.~ -
laurapamer — 18 years ago(September 23, 2007 02:19 PM)
It might be revolting, but it seems nonetheless quite accurate to me. I watched this movie for the very first time last night, and the "more than just uncle/niece" dynamic was very uncomfortable to watch but very hard to ignore.
If anything, the reality of the 1940s ADDS to the dynamic. Young Charlie does things like walking into her uncles bedroom and closing the door behind her. She is only going into the room to talk with him, but in 1943 the idea of a young woman entering an adult male's bedroom and closing the door behind her - leaving just the two of them alone, in private - would be very taboo, even if he is a relative.
And if this thread were started back when the movie was made, most people probably would not have TALKED about such a thing, but I'd be willing to bet that on some level they would be THINKING about it. -
jumbo-gumbo — 18 years ago(November 23, 2007 03:16 AM)
Uncle - niece is one of the most common forms of reported incest. In Tamil Nadu state in Southern India it is customary for maternal uncles to marry their nieces. In the state of Kerala also in Southern India people marry their maternal cousins. This however is practiced in many western countries as well, Ashley Wilkes was Melanie Hamilton's first cousin in Gone With The Wind ? Wasn't he.
I think as society evolves the definition of Incest is changing a lot. And yes theres definitely signs of a close relationship between Charlie and Young Charlie in this movie. May be he abused her as a teenager thats how many of this relationships start.. -
maraudertheslashnymph — 18 years ago(March 25, 2008 08:13 PM)
"This however is practiced in many western countries as well, Ashley Wilkes was Melanie Hamilton's first cousin in Gone With The Wind ? Wasn't he."
Both the book and the movie say that they're cousins, but neither specifies which kind. They could be first cousins or they could be more distantly related.
Holding out hope for The Front Runner. -
Noir-It-All — 17 years ago(September 22, 2008 04:45 PM)
/"This however is practiced in many western countries as well, Ashley Wilkes was Melanie Hamilton's first cousin in Gone With The Wind ? Wasn't he."
Both the book and the movie say that they're cousins, but neither specifies which kind. They could be first cousins or they could be more distantly related./
Another character in Gone With the Wind, Mrs. Tarleton, did not like the Wilkes' inbreeding at all. A avid breeder of horses, she saw that it weakened the descendants of the clan. She said quite a lot to Mr. O'Hara when they ran into each other on the way to the barbecue at the Wilkes house.
"Two more swords and I'll be Queen of the Monkey People." Roseanne -
Trippetta10 — 16 years ago(April 11, 2009 09:36 PM)
I don't think there was anything sexual between them at all. The problem is that, thanks to the time we live in, an adult male can't talk to a young girl for more than a few minutes without someone suspecting he wants to get (or has already gotten) into her pants.
-
Scott-101 — 14 years ago(May 01, 2011 04:34 PM)
It's precisely because it's such a taboo territory and that it can't really happen on any textual level, that it's fascinating how Hitchcock plays with the subtext.
In other words, on any textual or realistic level, there's no way this is romantic.
But it's fun to misread it, I suppose, and Hitchcock likes playing around with the symbolism and subtext, so he's inviting us to misread it too and at that point, if Hitch and us are reading it the same way, who's to say that's not really the implication.
It still never makes sense on any realistic level, that the two are really attracted to each other.
www.examiner.com/x-3877-dc-film-industry-examiner -
chlo0912 — 13 years ago(May 26, 2012 11:47 AM)
Just because we're saying there's sexual tension doesn't mean Uncle Charlie would be stupid enough to act on it. But there is sexual tension, Hitchcock was a meticulous director and certainly intended it. You can cut through it with a knife in many scenes. Anyone who's attributing it to the closeness of families back then is foolish. I'll bet you anything that audiences back then had the same uncomfortable reaction to Uncle Charlie and his niecethey were simply too close for comfort.
-
cold_sky — 11 years ago(June 09, 2014 10:49 PM)
I think it is revolting that anyone would imply sexual tension between the uncle and niece
Funny, coming from a girl whose last post [edit:actually a bunch of them] appears to be copyright infringement. In other words, you're not so innocent yourself. -
thebigmouth — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 11:04 AM)
I think it is revolting that anyone would imply sexual tension between the uncle and niece.
Then you don't know Hitchcock lol.
TV:
http://ihatemydvr.blogspot.com
LOST:
http://eyemsick.blogspot.com -
atlantean54 — 18 years ago(December 12, 2007 08:01 PM)
From watching the film again this morning, I couldn't help but feel a slightly "Poe-esque" tension between the two charactersThat kind of tension which was felt strongly between the two twins Roderick and Madeline Usher in Edgar Allan Poe's famous short story,
The Fall of the House of Usher
Remember the conversation between Uncle Charlie and the young Charlie in the kitchen about being "like twins." Having said this, the themes of inscest, murder and insanity fall clearly under the ruberick of Poe's ouevre and it couldn't simply be thought of as coincidental on Hitch's part. After all, in several interviews Hitch claims to have been quite taken with Poe's work and it seems only natural for such themes to filter their way into his craft. -
mrplankton — 18 years ago(December 14, 2007 02:49 PM)
my word! i didnt think of it as sexual tension. i thought she rather worshipped her uncle at first, tho i admit there did seem to be something going on. i merely thought the tension was due to her believing her uncle was a killer! i had better have another viewing and pay closer attention.
cheers.