I have seen it for the second time,and I noticed some plot holes.Don't get me wrong,I think this is a great movies,but s
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ashogo — 16 years ago(January 03, 2010 12:36 AM)
Well, Julien did tell them the story about being trapped in the elevatormaybe they used that and put 2 and 2 togetherpolice also have methods for determining whether a suicide is really a suicide
you're right though it doesn't seem like there was enough evidence against them.
A point against the visibility thing thoughI think it's pretty plausible that Julien climbed up there without being seen. You'd be surprised, but in cities people don't tend to look up that much. -
ashdre — 16 years ago(January 30, 2010 11:43 PM)
See, this is one of the reasons why I came to this thread and I'm glad you mentioned it. There was virtually no evidence to tag Tavernier to the murder of Mr Carala. The doors to his office were all locked (including the one that's never locked) and the grappling hook that Tavernier used to get up there was taken away by a cute little girl after it was mysteriously on the ground (another plot hole, really). There was proof to an affair between Tavernier and Mrs. Carala, so what? Doesn't mean there was a plan of murder. It bugged me. I can disregard all the other plot holes mentioned, but not that one, because it's such an important one. Good movie, though.
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Twiky — 15 years ago(March 11, 2011 04:30 AM)
I think the little girl picking up the hook and the lift coming down after power failure, imply that Tavernier already unhooked the rope and was almost leaving the building (coming down the elevator).
The photographer of the couple is a mistery, maybe a close friend, maybe we don't need to take things so literally, the photos represent 'intimacy' photos, but I think in 1958 Louis Malle wasn't ready to show some hardcore making love photos yet!! Anyway the photos could have been with more of a 'from the photographeds' hand' viewpoint.
About the cop not having enough evidence to assume Mr. Carala was murdered, he throws a hook (the accusation) and the fish (Mrs. Carala) byte!! The confession is all the evidence that you're looking for.
Peace. -
freudified_n_funkified — 14 years ago(May 26, 2011 08:21 PM)
I thought it was a nice touch that the grappling hook fell on it's own. I think had he already gone up and unhooked it he wouldn't have just dropped it to the street. As the plot device that catalyzes the rest of the movie, it's a nice little irony that it apparently simply dislodged itself.
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Twiky — 14 years ago(May 27, 2011 12:12 AM)
I like your theory more, nonetheless why is he coming down then?! Maybe it's just a failsafe of the elevator.
It's also possible that when he did a swinging motion to free the hook it fell to the ground, not that he grab the hook and throw it down, I wasn't implying that eh eh.
Peace. -
Zoomorph — 10 years ago(April 25, 2015 11:16 PM)
+1
Also, why did the chick admit to the plot against her husband at the end? There was no evidence and she could've easily admitted their affair without admitting to murder.
Good film. ie, worth 5/10. Far from a great film.
~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~ -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 11 years ago(February 15, 2015 12:01 PM)
Excellent points. I think that these characters just weren't that bright. They cooked up a plan, but they weren't great at dealing with the unexpected.
As for point # 6, I answered this for someone else on the thread already: if Mr. Carala was out of town for awhile, the lovers might have gone on a holiday to another town where no one would know them. They could have asked random strangers to take the pictures.
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JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen -
sirgeddon — 15 years ago(October 24, 2010 09:59 AM)
What you are pointing out are not really plot holes but basically what you think are poor decisions by characters. People make bad decisions all the time and at the time of murder, you would think they will be prone to error because they are very nervous.
When Tavernier was climbing down, he heard the phone ringing and had to answer it. He had no time to unhook the rope because if the woman came inside the room she would find he was not inside and that will prove he had murdered the boss.
About Florence asking everyone about Tavernier, she assumed that Tavernier had chickened out and not murdered her husband. If he had, why would she think he would be out on the town with another girl ?
About the photos on the camera, I agree that was silly but again, I would say that was another stupid thing they did. They were just private photos and they didnt really think anyone would get hold of them.
About who took the photos, it could have been a friend. We dont know too much about their back story, so it doesnt matter. -
demersonw — 13 years ago(June 21, 2012 09:41 PM)
Also I think a lot of those bad decisions are the whole point of the film. This couple plans the perfect murder, it seemingly goes off as planned and then the ex paratrooper boyfriend makes the dumbest mistakes he possibly could have a botches the whole thing.
Also I like the irony of how he went back up into the building to get the rope so he wouldnt get caught but then the rope falls to the ground and he wouldnt have gotten caught anyways. But then the only reason he does get caught is because he does go back into the building, allowing the kids to steal his car, kill the germans, and then have the photos found by the police.
Then the irony in the interrogation scene where he didnt want to say he was in the elevator but there was no reason to because he could have just said he was getting something from his desk. Thats not incriminating at all and perfectly understandable. Then he finally does but if he had stuck to his original story of being drunk and not remembering, the cops wouldnt have been able to put him at the scene of the crime and he probably wouldnt have been as much of a suspect. I figured at then end, since the cops had evidence of an affair and he confessed to being at the scene of the crime, they suspected him enough to trick her into confessing at the end.
Also the photo thing doesnt bother me. I assume they are out of town, probably a little town somewhere where people dont know who they are and they just asked a passerby to snap some photos.
Still not saying its a perfect film by any means but I do think a lot of the accused plot holes are actually what makes this film so great.
before you can get rolling, your life makes a beeline for the drain. -
Christopher_Smilax — 9 years ago(December 23, 2016 03:43 PM)
What you are pointing out are not really plot holes but basically what you think are poor decisions by characters. People make bad decisions all the time and at the time of murder, you would think they will be prone to error because they are very nervous.
When Tavernier was climbing down, he heard the phone ringing and had to answer it. He had no time to unhook the rope because if the woman came inside the room she would find he was not inside and that will prove he had murdered the boss.
About Florence asking everyone about Tavernier, she assumed that Tavernier had chickened out and not murdered her husband. If he had, why would she think he would be out on the town with another girl ?
About the photos on the camera, I agree that was silly but again, I would say that was another stupid thing they did. They were just private photos and they didnt really think anyone would get hold of them.
About who took the photos, it could have been a friend. We dont know too much about their back story, so it doesnt matter.
Thank you.
Howard Hughes was Italian? -
PoppyTransfusion — 13 years ago(September 11, 2012 07:06 AM)
OP: I don't think they are plot holes.
Madame Carala is exposing herself by searching for Julien but equally not everyone know she is or what she looks like, e.g. after her arrest the police do not recognise her. I doubt in 1958 it would have been easy to check if her husband had flown to Switzerland. At the beginning the security guard and receptionist talk about how mysteriously Mr Carala travels. Perhaps his travel plans were mysterious to his wife as well so that she would not know where he might be staying in Switzerland.
Tavernier was her hitman. She was the architect of the crime, according to the police. We don't know the terms of the Carala relationship re-money in the event of divorce and neither do we know the nature of their relationship. Again according to what the receptionist and Tavernier say he is not a nice man. Also divorce initiated by women was rare until the very late 20th century.
Why problem make? When you no problem have, you don't want to make -
joshuayeary — 13 years ago(September 13, 2012 03:55 AM)
She said he was in Switzerland because that was where he was planning to go before he was murdered. If she was to pretend like she was ignorant about the murder, she would have to act as though she believed he had gone to Switzerland.
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MsELLERYqueen2 — 13 years ago(November 12, 2012 06:48 PM)
She might have called home and all that. They don't need to show her making the call.
And she certainly deserved more prison time than Tavernier. She's the one who started all this.
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Jim Hutton: talented gorgeous hot hunk; adorable as ElleryQueen; SEXIEST ACTOR EVER -
maximusveritas — 12 years ago(February 26, 2014 06:59 PM)
These are more like problems with the plot rather than holes, but I agree with much of what has been brought up in the thread.
I also had a problem with Tavernier staying quiet while Carala was banging on the bars outside. He had to know it was most likely her and even if there was nothing she could do, it would be good for her to at least know what was going on.
I also had a problem with his behavior after escaping from the elevator. At first I thought he heard the cops talking about him as they went up the elevator, but even if not, he was incredibly slow in reacting to the girl recognizing him and reading the paper, staying frozen in his seat as the cops surround him. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 11 years ago(February 15, 2015 12:51 PM)
Regarding your last paragraph: he and his girlfriend weren't professional killers. They cooked up this one plan and things went wrong very suddenly. A professional (like a gangster) would have been very careful. This amateur criminal just didn't think that the cops were closing in on him. He wasn't used to hiding from the cops. His girlfriend was the same way: she had no problems walking around the neighborhood that night, asking everyone if they had seen him.
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JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 11 years ago(February 15, 2015 09:36 PM)
Also, regarding your last paragraph, I forgot to mention another point:
when he finally escaped from the elevator, he had no knowledge of the murders which took place at the motel
he knew that Carala's body couldn't have been discovered when he was in the elevator. The power was out most of the time, except for a VERY brief time when the one worker turned it on and the elevator moved a bit. Then when the power was on long enough for him to escape, he knew that the body could have been found at that time (and it was), but that wouldn't have been enough time for his picture to get in the paper. Besides, when he walked outside, it was quiet out there. If Carala's body had already been discovered, the area would have been swarmed with cops, people, reporters, etc.
Therefore, he had no reason to assume that his picture would be in the paper, linked to any murder. The girl's comments about it "being the same man" wouldn't have meant anything to him. He probably would have assumed that she was just being silly.
Once the girl and her father (?) left the cafe and he saw the paper, the cops surrounded him, and he was probably stunned at the fact that he was the prime suspect in a murder which took place when he was in the elevator.
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JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen -
sfm4 — 11 years ago(August 22, 2014 04:29 PM)
Here's one more plot hole that no one seems to mention. Before he shoots the couple, Louis tries to start the Mercedes and can't get it into gear. The German man tells him that he's "hidden" first gear (to foil car thieves apparently), but he never gets a chance to tell Louis where it's hidden. After Louis shoots the couple, he's able to get the car in gear easily and he drives away with Veronique. How did Louis do that so easily if the placement of the gear was hidden and he
wasn't told how to access it? -
kenny-164 — 11 years ago(September 03, 2014 11:46 AM)
I dont know what is meant by hiding first gear. I thought that was merely a joke making fun of Louis's not being able to put it in gear. How does one hide a gear?
Imo the attempt to identify mistakes by characters that are plausible as plot holes is a fraught enterprise, and usually unsatisfying one. Better to raise questions than to reach a firm conclusion.
Take the example of leaving the rope. I agree that Tavernier was distracted by the phone call, and the film's editing "shows" quite clearly that his timing in answering the call served to put off his secretary and the security guard's concerns. Then realizing he had to answer the call and doing so, he forgot about the rope. A mistake, but it happens. Mistakes happen in real life, too.
A more significant question (as significant as the rope was) concerns the ending. A question was raised here if the police really had enough evidence from the pictures to convict Tavernier and Mrs. Carala. I think not. While they could be used to try and help establish motive, motive is not enough to convict someone with, and even on motive the pics are only a start of providing motive. After all not everyone who has an affair kills their spouse. To say the least. The film makes no reference to the police having obtained sufficient forensics, either. There may well have been some other evidence that could have been pointed to by the film, but it was not.
So someone above had referred to Mrs. Carala's behavior when hearing the policeman's recitation of their likely sentences as amounting to an admission. I watched that closely again last night and do not think such behavior was so clear as that. Not at all. It was rather ambiguous.
In short too many of the posts here about plot holes represent a view of the film that is too tied to the literal and to the narrative. The point of the film, after all, is encapsulated in Mrs. Carala's meditation on the pictures, how they show the two lovers togehter, and how no one can take that away, meaning their time together, and related to that her memories of them being together. Even IF she goes to prison and spends many years there, she will still have that. But I don't see the ending as saying she definitely will spend a great deal of time in prison. It is not that kind of film. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 11 years ago(February 14, 2015 11:36 PM)
I think that the point that the cops were trying to make was that she was the one who started this whole mess. Since it was clear to the cops that she and Tavernier were having an affair, and since the cops already suspected that Mr. Carala had been murdered, they made it clear to her that they would investigate further, but that the truth would come out at the end. That was how I interpreted the ending, that they were basically warning her about what kinds of investigations they would be making based on those pictures.
Besides, who else
could
have committed the crime? Not many people left in the building that one evening, and some of those other workers saw each other, etc.
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JimHutton (1934-79) and ElleryQueen