Lightoller responsible for more deaths than any single crewmember
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PVarjak — 16 years ago(December 23, 2009 03:35 PM)
I'm not sure I agree. The real question ought to be how many women and children did NOT MAKE IT into lifeboats. As depicted in this and other movies and documentaries; a lot of people acted badly and crowded the lifeboat loading points. If they'd expedited getting women and children into boats quickly, then more of the other passengers could have made it onto boats. And I do think that FAMILIES (including men) should have been put on boats. And I'm saying that as a single man without a wife or children. In those days, losing the 'breadwinner' (almost invariably a man at that point in history) could be devastating to a family.
That said, lowering half-empty boats was incredibly foolish; but if men had been openly let on (and as depicted here and elsewhere, some were), chaos would probably have erupted (beyond what already existed). Can you imagine what would have happened today? The lawsuits would go on FOREVER! -
arbilab — 15 years ago(May 23, 2010 10:47 AM)
Hey Karl, you do that too? Bitchen! I love making the red light flash at NSA. Hey, I'm paying those schmucks to spy on me, I can cop a giggle out of waking them up now and then.
I don't buy any of the excuses for Lightoller's action. Even his excuses at the hearings were lame. Oh, how fascinating he wasn't a women or a children, but made it onto a boat. What a worm. -
TorontoJediMaster — 15 years ago(June 01, 2010 09:10 PM)
The
Lusitania
went down in less than a half-hour, actually.
The person actually responsible for everything was the Captain. He was the one who gave the orders. He was the one who had the onus to make sure that his orders were being interpreted correctly.
The problem was that there seemed to be a lack of communication stemming from the bridge. Captain Smith didn't make it clear to his officers just how serious the situation was. All the surviving officers said that it wasn't until quite late into the event that they realized the ship was actually going to founder.
For all of J. Bruce Ismay's histrionics, at least he was trying to instill some urgency into the officers. (Senator William A. Smith, even noted that during the official inquiry). That was something Captain Smith didn't do. Smith seemed to really shut down psychologicallly after he learned how serious the situation was. He didn't go along the Boat Deck to make sure that his officers were carrying out his orders correctly. I'm certain that if Smith had seen that Lightoller was misinterpreting his orders, he would have said something and Lightoller would have changed his own orders.
One clearly anti-Lightoller poster here said that Lightoller made it into a boat himself. Actually, he didn't. He made no attempt to board a lifeboat himself. He stayed on the ship until almost the end. Once in the water, I can't see how anyone can blame him for trying to survive. -
bradford-1 — 14 years ago(April 28, 2011 09:30 AM)
Obviously all the orders given by Smith and supposedly misinterpreted by Lightoller were conveyed by word of mouth. Smith couldn't call Lightoller on his iPhone every 20 minutes to make sure things were being done correctly. They couldn't text or tweet each other or any other officer. Of course too many boats were released without full capacity, but can anyone sitting in front of their PC's in a dry room with few distractions say they could've done any better than the Titanic officers? And NOT having all the information that has become available since 1912. I couldn't!
"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did." -
TheGuyWithTheFeet — 14 years ago(May 19, 2011 05:48 AM)
Since Lightoller cost a great many people their lives by interpreting the orders as "women and children only", I don't think that he could be considered as much of a hero as Murdoch. He captained an overturned lifeboat, true. But he refused people into boats. Why don't people see the significance of that?
IMO, the only reason that Lightoller is held in as high of regard as he is is because of the film
A Night to Remember
. Had the main character been Lowe, he would be the most famous of the Titanic officers. -
TheGuyWithTheFeet — 14 years ago(May 19, 2011 10:45 AM)
Good point.
While I'm not going to open a can of worms with the suicide debate, I'll say that it's a shame that Murdoch will forever be known as the office who committed suicide rather than how he generally seems to have kept his composure throughout the ordeal. Even if he did. Whether he did or didn't is irrelevant to his heroism. -
internetnicknamehere-178-30027 — 14 years ago(October 12, 2011 02:46 PM)
In defence of Lightoller, keep in mind that he wasn't fully aware of the ship's predicament, he stated in an radio interview in 1936 that during the later stages of the sinking, he realised the ship was going to sink before help arrived, and began filling his boats with more people, although this was still just women and children. Also keep in mind that Lightoller thought the ships davits couldn't hold fully laden lifeboats, so he didn't lower them laden. I know he sent off some lifeboats only half full, but remember that at first some passengers didn't want to get in, and he didn't think it was a serious situation. More men would have survived if Lightoller had taken Murdoch's approach and allowed men in, if women weren't waiting nearby, but remember that Murdoch knew the ship would sink before help arrived, while Lightoller didn't.
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TorontoJediMaster — 14 years ago(October 14, 2011 09:31 PM)
Again, that shows lack of communication between Captain Smith and his subordinates. Captain Smith should have checked -or perhaps delegated Chief Officer Wilde to do so- to make sure his orders had been interpreted correctly.
He also should have instilled urgency in them by telling them exactly how serious the situation was, the need to fill boats to capacity and the fact that the davits could handle it.
I think Lightoller has a greater deal of fame for two reasons: one, he was the only one of the ship's three senior watch officers to survive the sinking (Pitman, Boxhall and Lowe were all rated as junior officers). And two, he actually went down with the ship and lived to tell about it. -
arbilab — 14 years ago(October 16, 2011 10:16 PM)
In the past 2 years I've done the math of what
weight
the lifeboats could carry (versus 'number of seats' as they were rated) and determined that EVERYone willing to evacuate could have been saved. As long as panic didn't ensue AND the evacuation began immediately upon the assessment that the ship would unquestionably founder.
Who the hell was Lightoller to second guess the engineers as to what the davits could sustain? The boats were "tested with the weight of 70 men", at an average weight of 180# and surely the davits were rated for the same load.
But really, the line came down to the distinction between urgency and panic, and officers really trained to carry out an evacuation in the most possibly efficient manner. They weren't, and the line between urgency and panic is amorphous.
Nevermind what I told you. I'm telling you.
James Cagney -
deeveed — 14 years ago(March 16, 2012 06:32 AM)
Since Lightoller cost a great many people their lives by interpreting the orders as "women and children only", I don't think that he could be considered as much of a hero as Murdoch. He captained an overturned lifeboat, true. But he refused people into boats. Why don't people see the significance of that?
You know if there's really any blame for the lost lives I'd suggest placing it squarely on the shoulders of Capt Smith, the commander who was ultimately responsible for ALL lives on the boat. I believe when Lightoller is described as costing people their lives it is a misnomer because, realizing the situation, his overriding motive was to simply get people and if it was "women and children only" well so be it, (he did live in the Edwardian age didn't he?) off the ship. Looking at Capt Smith's command of the Titanic prior to the sinking shows a serious lack of good judgment as he speed the Titanic through iceberg fields at night no less. Arguably it is he rather than Lightoller who cost many people their lives on that voyage. -
chimaera1249 — 14 years ago(March 16, 2012 07:33 AM)
The "blame," if there is any, in my opinion goes to the Board of Trade. Ships had been growing much faster than the regulations and standard practices. With way ships were being operated, it was inevitable that one would eventually have a serious accident with severe consequences.
Titanic
was just the one that drew the short straw. Nearly every ship on the water, and certainly those belonging to the bigger lines operated in the same way, proceed normally until a threat presented itself. Up until the disaster, nothing had. Yes, they had received ice warnings, but that was not unusual, and Smith did take action by leaving standing orders with the bridge and the lookouts to keep a sharp watch for ice. He also left an order with Lightoller to get him immediately if anything "became doubtful." Smith is certainly responsible for what happens on the ship as Captain, but I don't go as far as to blame him for the disaster. Its unfair to put on him the mistakes that every captain did. -
deeveed — 14 years ago(March 19, 2012 08:35 AM)
Perhaps it was better that Smith went down with the ship? I'd think it would have been very interesting to see him on the stand and I'd suggest he'd probably be pilloried by some in the press. I'm not an expert on naval law but I'd think the Captain of a ship is responsible for everybody and everything happening on that ship when he is in command. Really, captains when on the sea are far away from THEIR commanders. They are picked to have excellent judgment in the exercise of their command.
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PoppyTransfusion — 13 years ago(July 08, 2012 10:28 AM)
In the 'making of' doc on the DVD the film's producer, William MacQuitty says that Lightoller misinterpreted the 'women and children first' as only those and that's why the lifeboats were not full. But he doesn't condemn Litgholler rather it shows how communication is never without interpretations that can skew the message and influence events.
I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl -
arbilab — 13 years ago(August 04, 2012 10:37 PM)
Of course, executive communication must be followed up that it has been interpreted as intended. Perhaps there wasn't time for that. Perhaps Smith went catatonic as in Cameron's version. I dunno, I wasn't born yet, neither were my parents.
It's twue! It's twue!
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luverofmovies — 13 years ago(August 11, 2012 11:52 PM)
I am disappointed to read that some feel Lightholer might be responsible for not saving as many lives as possible. I've always held him in high regard, so want to think the best. However, he was the only senior officer that was able to live through this nightmare, and his account, which may or may not be entirely accurate, due to being employed by the White Star Line, is all we have. I'm sure he wanted to keep the job, so who knows. However, in times of probable death, with a boat partially filled, fill it with anyone you see!!
I am especially annoyed about the ultra rich arrogant Slr/Lady (yes, I know who they probably meant, names available on recounts, pictures, too, maybe many like them, though) leaving with just them, their maids, valets, some staff, and maybe a very few lucky ones in the right place - about 20 or so in all. Many dozens more could have been saved.
Was Bruce Ismay really the coward he has been protrayed in all the movies about this tragedy, or is that fiction? He did manage to get on a boat when "Women and Children First" was the standard of that bygone era. He was the heir to the owners. From a documentary I've seen several times, he did seem to have escaped fairly well during inquiries, but his dignity and reputation were in tatters. -
Miss_Sui_Generis — 13 years ago(August 31, 2012 11:44 PM)
It's true that Sir & Lady You Know Who left the Titanic in a lifeboat with 12 people in it although the capacity was 40. It's also true that Lightoller only allowed men in lifeboats if they were needed to row;those men were more likely to be crew than the older sons or husbands of the women already seated. What redeems Lightoller is that he refused to stop loading lifeboats even after the Captain told him it was every man for himself. He acted as a leader until he and the other survivors were taken aboard the Carpathia the next morning.
Lightoller did a decent job in difficult circumstances.
Send lawyers,guns and money/The beep has hit the fan