Oh, Please!!!
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — El Cid
gemichus — 20 years ago(November 05, 2005 02:17 AM)
Ok, Ok, I know that maybe it's not easy for not-spanish people to know how the towns calls, but this is one of ours most famous heros ( and ours means the whole hispanic and latin culture, by heritage) please!!! Bivar???? Chimene???
The place where El Cid Was born vas a little town called Vivar, and in this age the people added their place of birth to their names, and the name of his wife was Jimena or Ximena. -
Master_of_the_Pride — 20 years ago(November 08, 2005 11:26 PM)
Hi gemichus!
Bivar is apparently an old spelling of Vivar: after all we're talking Middle Ages here, late 12th century. As for Jimena or Ximena, you might know that the sound noted "j" in Spanish exists neither in English nor in French. It so happens that the Spanish romancero Las mocedades del Cid by Guilln de Castro was used by French dramatist Corneille for his play Le Cid, where Rodrigo became Rodrigue, Urraca Urraque and Jimena Chimne. This play (1637) is one of the most famous in French theater till this day. It may be that it was known by the writers of Mann's El Cid.
It's quite true that El Cid is one of the most famous Spanish (and, for that matter, latin and western heroes), but if he's known more widely, it's by a Hollywood epic. Minor flaws are not that important when the film has such a strong storyline, beautiful cinematography, scenery, and so on. Spanish viewers may be bothered with a few details, but then again, where is the Spanish director who offered us his vision? Let's thank the great Anthony Mann and move on, I mean ride on, with Rodrigo! Seriously, would you know if there is a Spanish film (even TV-made, but easily available in DVD) about this magnificent story of honor, grandeur and courage?
Thanks. -
cortezs — 20 years ago(November 13, 2005 09:03 PM)
It's good to know that this movie has not been forgotten in 2005. The mispronouncements are unfortunate but 1961 was 44 years ago. So long ago that the president of the NRA probably forgot having read a line in El Cid that goes something like "you'll make a Muslim of me yet!" meant as a compliment to his Moorish ally.
I believe that the Spanish deserve recognition for being able to live peacefully for hundreds of years with Christians, Muslims and Jews in the same country.
The methods used then should be explored to see how we can try to live more peacefully now- surely we all have learned something in the years since hreoes like El Mio Cid walked the earth.
Incidentally, I am loving the challenge of reading Don Quixote in Spanish. Cervantes should be revered as the Shakespeare of Spain - I suspect that William of Avon borrowed from him. -
johnsilverlargo — 19 years ago(May 07, 2006 03:17 AM)
hi cortezs
haha, for every spanish speaker book-lover Cervantes is undoubtedly much more bigger than Shakespeare, and don Quijote, the best book ever written. haha, here is an evident fact: as the milk is white.
But not only that spanish writer is understimate by the vain USA reader: Bcquer, Baroja, Clarn, Galds, Caldern and a long etcetera are really big for every wise reader that give a chance to any of their books. but they are understimate in USA just for being "spaniards".
unfair, but its the truth. -
michaelstep2004 — 19 years ago(July 21, 2006 09:28 AM)
No john, the Spanish writers you list are not undervalued in the US because they are "Spaniards." They are undervalued because their books are written in Spanish, are not widely available in translation, and most Americans can't read Spanish.
As for Don Quixote, there are adequate English translations of this great masterpiece, but they are not very good in communicating the "Spanishness" of the book. I'm sure that Spanish translations of Shakespeare miss something important, too. -
rosadeinglaterra — 20 years ago(January 29, 2006 01:40 PM)
Allow me to quote you a bit of the "Poema de Mo Cid"
"A grandes vozes llama el que en buen ora nasco:
Feridlos, cavalleros, por amor de caridad!
Yo s Rruy Daz de Bivar, el Cid Campeador!"
ll.719-721
As for Ximena, I agree that the way they left of the ending -a was inexcusable. -
ames0826 — 20 years ago(March 19, 2006 10:58 PM)
"I believe that the Spanish deserve recognition for being able to live peacefully for hundreds of years with Christians, Muslims and Jews in the same country."
The Spanish Christians and Muslims were in a virtually constant state of war for almost eight hundred years. And THEN the Spanish Christians came up with the Inquisition as an ethnic-cleansing tool against Muslims and Jews.
Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar may have been a Spanish role model because of his courage, but his lessons in toleration took about nine centuries to soak in. -
vandyvch — 20 years ago(March 24, 2006 11:09 PM)
Tolerance - BAH. That's the reason Spainiards are eventually going to be non-existant in their own country.
And now with that idiot president Zapatero the process should be speeded up even faster, unfortunately. -
Ctown322 — 17 years ago(May 03, 2008 08:07 PM)
You are completely wrong. El Cid is evidence of this fact. They were at war, however Christian kings fought each other as well, as did the Moors. There were also a number of allegiences of Christians and Moors against other Christians and Moors. There was no real sense of a religious war during this period, that came much later during the 15th century. Christian Spain during this period was midly tolerant, mainly for political purposes, while Moorish Spain before the Almoravids (Ben Yusuf's invasion in the film), were pretty tolerant indeed.
Your comment regarding the inquisition is extremely ignorant. The inquisition was begun in both france and england before it was in Spain, and the goal was expulsion not destruction. In fact, King Ferdinand himself was part Jewish, Jews had reached a very high social strata in the empire, this is why it was viewed as such an extreme measure. The reason medieval Spain is viewed in such a negative light today is because here in America we get our history from British sources. This is coming from a PHD student at an ivy league university focusing on medieval Spain. -
stuart_macleod — 17 years ago(June 09, 2008 08:17 AM)
Dear Dr. Ctown322
Why are British academic sources so bad compared to any other? To be considered academic sources in the first place they must be based upon evidence and the sources be subject to analysis and review. Otherwise no place of learning would use them, let alone Ivy League universities.
This isnt the 1540's, Britain and Spain havent had a major clash of heads for hundreds of years. So it is difficult to see why a British publication would be less objective than works from anywhere else?
I find your generalisation distateful
a pox on you -
MrPie7 — 17 years ago(September 20, 2008 11:20 AM)
Well Mr. PHD ivy league, you better study harder. Ever hear of Torquemada? Was he French? British? His methods were so harsh, and he was so hated that he needed a bodyguard of 300 heavily armed men. Proof of the excesses of the Inquistion can be supported by the fact that Pope Sixtus IV rebuked it for torture, graft, and personal ambition. And this was before ol' "Mr T" took it to a whole new level of viciousness. Oh, I forgot. Sixtus was one of the MANY British popes.
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Captain_Augustus_McCrae — 13 years ago(June 11, 2012 04:35 PM)
Quite wrong. Sixtus IV was Italian. Look it up.
And as for the spelling variations between the time of El Cid and today, has anyone read Shakespeare? The time that Shakespeare was writing his plays was centuries more recent than the time of Rodrigo Diaz de Bivar, and yet no one seems to be upset by the spelling variations between Shakespeare's time and today. Why should it be a surprise that a thousand years later, we are spelling some words/names different than the time of the Cid? OP, please think before you post.
"It ain't dying I'm talking about, it's LIVING!"
Captain Augustus McCrae -
drlarue-1 — 17 years ago(July 06, 2008 01:16 AM)
Historical referrences paint the oft praised period of Muslim domination on the Iberian pennensula a bit less ideal than is often purported today as the above poster implied. Jews had to pay a tax and suffered a few hard purges, as did Christians. And the Muslims warred among themselves. El Cid, I read was actually a soldier of fortune who sold his services to one side and then another, but managed to work some honor into some of his soldiering. The rest is legend, much like The Song of Roland. At this time in Spanish history, the Spanish were largely German Visigothic tibes that had combined with earlier Roman settlers and even the German Vandals of (V)Andulsia - with some Celtic-Iberians thrown in. Love this movie however, and I don't think it could, or should ever be remade. There will never be another Charleton Heston or Sophia Loren.
"Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar may have been a Spanish role model because of his courage, but his lessons in toleration took about nine centuries to soak in."
That's right, the Spanish Inquisition was active right into the 18th century until it had exhausted the Spanish people. It was the Marxist revolutions and the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s that created today's notions of toleration. It is only a modern myth for the sake of expediency. Meanwhile, the Muslims have claimed Spain as part of their sacred empire. Let's see how this plays out. -
justshovejayohbe — 20 years ago(March 25, 2006 05:30 PM)
b and v are interchangable with spanish translation into english just the way you see "osama" and "usama" bin laden.
in spanish you guys call hannibal barca "anibale" and i think that's retarded, but you don't see me making a tirade about it online -
blakduke — 19 years ago(August 18, 2006 11:39 AM)
Hey Bozo
when you make a movie in Spain for the spanish speaking public about some figure in the USA you can spell it whatever way you want so that your audience can understand it, that is what was done here for an english speaking audience so shut your pie hole.