Fats employed every trick to beat Felson; otherwise he loses.
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — The Hustler
isolated_ions — 15 years ago(February 25, 2011 07:55 AM)
First of all I love the line, "You look beautiful, Fats, just like a baby, all pink and powdered up." HAHA!
When I saw the film for the first time and Newman delivered this line, I was in tears from laughing so hard. Even to this day, I still get a kick out of that lineI saw the movie late, late last night on AMC HD and it looked marvelous! Anyway, is there anyone else who find the line amusing or to be worthy enough of a "best quotes" reel (for this film at the very least)? Just curious.
As far as the opening sequence with Eddie vs Fats.
I have to say I don't think Eddie was really beat at the beginning of the film. What seems really obvious is that Eddie, despite spanking the baby, didn't feel he had succeeded simply because Fats didn't call it quits. In Eddie's mind Fats would not be beaten until he was beaten so bad he had conceded his loss to Eddie; thus, Eddie was convinced Fats was toying with him or had not yet revealed his "best game" of straight pool.
Obviously this was a bad move on the part of Eddie due to the outcome. Whether or not Fats had revealed his best game up front is debatable. Personally, I feel that Fats didn't have much more, if any, level of skill yet to reveal to Eddie; it was simply a combination of finding Eddie's weak point and exploiting it. This "weakness" and the exploitation, as we all know, was multi-pronged pitchfork in Eddie's side that night. Now, despite that his primary affliction was his ego (and the bravado that goes along with it as his "tell"), the drinking he had done as well as the lack of sleep and persistent playing contributed just as much to his collapse, both literally and figuratively speaking.
As it were, no one beat Eddie Felson but Eddie Felson. You might say he was hustled, or out played, or whatever you'd like to call it but it remains that Fats had to call in his bank and overseer, Gordon, to fund him and help determine the optimal way to take Eddie out. He also had to "pretend" to drink seriously, and the point being is that Eddie's ego would force him to imbibe equally so that they would remain on a level playing field. The ruse of this should be obvious to everyone
A. Fats was much heavier so thus he would have a natural advantage at holding his liquor over Felson,
B. he had all of his drinks on the rocks while Eddie was downing straight Bourbon,
C. According to what we are shown, Eddie was out-drinking Fats by a considerable margin, thus his game would surely have been more affected by liquor than Fats, and finally
D. We really have no clue if Fats was even drinking (full strength) alcohol, where as it was plain as day to see that Eddie was taking swigs off a bottle of Jack Daniel's. (this is merely speculative, but its worth taking into account considering all the other aspects of the situation that were in Fats' favor in other words I wouldn't put it past Fats/Gordon to resort to such schemes as drinking watered down whiskey, or not even liquor at all)
I could go on about how they were also playing on Fats' pissing grounds as well as his "reserved" table, or how Gordon had to goad Eddie verbally while Fats did the same with body language, his playing, the fact that he wouldn't call it quits, etc. etc. (watch Gleason closely in these scenes, watch what he does with his coat, his hands, his face even, and perhaps you'll take notice of this somewhat ineffable quality of Fats' characteralso watch how Eddie mimics him, as to keep the playing field even, in my estimation Fats had Eddie practically eating out of his hand).
So what does all this yammering amount to? Well, simply put, Eddie was a natural, the better pool player, perhaps the best in my book anyway. The better man, however the better hustler, that night (and day), was undoubtedly Minnesota Fats.
FYI - I just watched the beginning sequence of pool playing last night, I didn't finish the film and I haven't seen it in its entirety in AGES. Thus any arguments directed at this post which are predicated on events further in the film will simply be ignored (well, not really but try to keep in mind my statements are about the opening sequence; if your duty is to inform me on later events which help understand this scene, by all means feel free). -
artdirector-2 — 15 years ago(March 25, 2011 10:31 PM)
HVery well said. I agree with that.
Seems lazy for me to just say "I agree" after you posted such a well thought out statment. But you are right in my view.
Im wondering if anyone here has read the novel and of it casts the same light.
I may read it and see.
Also I think Fast Eddie was way better than that punkass Vince from color of money. -
isolated_ions — 14 years ago(April 13, 2011 09:48 AM)
that last part is debatable.
But yeah, I'm glad you agree about everything else. I don't know, maybe all the things I mentioned were obvious or I took too long to say them, since there weren't a lot of responses? Either way, I thought it needed saying that Eddie was the purer talent, while Fats was superb and used all his wits and scruples to bring his overall "game" to an unparalleled level. -
rekem — 12 years ago(August 22, 2013 04:40 PM)
I've read the novel. For what it's worth it isn't better than the movie, but if you're a true fan of the movie it's worth a read because it does reveal insights that the movie merely hints at. A key moment of that initial game was when Eddie is crushing Fats and asks Fats if it's over. When Fats, after looking over at Gordon, doesn't concede, Eddie proclaims that he's the, "Best there is. Now even if you beat me, I'm still the best." That's when Gordon tells Fats, "Stay with this kid. He's a loser." The novel makes clear that Gordon recognized that Eddie had just given himself permission to lose. He had proclaimed himself the best, without yet beating the best, and even if he somehow lost, it was okay. As Gordon would later tell Eddie he was probably deciding how he could lose. And, "At the end of the game you count your money, that's how you find out who's best." As brilliant as Eddie was playing, and as cocky as he sounded, he pretty much quit on himself. Why? Once again, Gordon has the answer. "Winning can be heavy on your back, too. Like a monkey."
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kag2-1 — 14 years ago(May 22, 2011 07:46 AM)
At one point Fats looks to Bert for advice, and Bert says stay with this kid, he's a loser. Fats realized Eddie was the better player, but with Bert's encouragement realized he could probably out-last Eddie with the combination he ended up using.
But with a more-focused Eddie at the second match, Fats threw in the towel. -
m-slovak79 — 14 years ago(May 31, 2011 04:33 PM)
overall good post by the OP. i agreed with most of it.
As far as the opening sequence with Eddie vs Fats.
I have to say I don't think Eddie was really beat at the beginning of the film. What seems really obvious is that Eddie, despite spanking the baby, didn't feel he had succeeded simply because Fats didn't call it quits. In Eddie's mind Fats would not be beaten until he was beaten so bad he had conceded his loss to Eddie;
Agreed. because you could tell he did not give a damn about the money it was all about the challenge and completely owning someone who was supposedly 'the best'.
so he did not want to just beat Fats but he wanted to beat him so bad that it could not even be debatable on who's better.
thus, Eddie was convinced Fats was toying with him or had not yet revealed his "best game" of straight pool.
this i don't see personally. it just came back to that Eddie wanted to have Fats admit defeat which is why he said the whole "it's not over until Fats says it's over" because once Fats said that in Eddie's mind that's all it took in order to admit that Fats could not touch Eddie.
but i definitely agree that he wanted to hear Fats say it was over which would basically be like admitting 'i just got owned by you. your the best and i can't beat you'.
THAT's what Eddie really wanted.My Vote History
http://imdb.to/b5rrNh -
isolated_ions — 14 years ago(May 31, 2011 05:20 PM)
Yeah, I suppose its kinda up for debate whether he knew he had Fats beat but he just wanted to hear him admit it, or whether he believed Fats hadn't revealed his full game/skill (and I'm for this perspective due to the end of The Color of Money when he says he wants Vince's straight game kinda showing that he had come full circle since this opening sequence of The Hustler). The main reason its kind of subjective though is because it's all in the mind of the character; it's never fully revealed what he was thinking exactly.
In the end though, it probably doesn't matter, because as you said, he just wanted Fats to submit to him verbally. -
capablecarl — 14 years ago(November 19, 2011 07:31 AM)
Regarding OP's original post:
Fats was a master.
He correctly read Eddie as an easy mark. What kind of a man would walk into another man's arena and demand a throw down? Only a man with tremendous ego, the kind of ego that can be toyed with and exploited.
Fats dropped some hay makers on Eddie early, because he wanted to see how Eddie would respond and if he would reveal his skill. He did, and Fats was able to determine that he was over matched by Eddie. He would need to take him down another way.
Fats drank on the rocks, and requested his bottle be obtained from another source. Fats drank with restraint, if at all, as OP cleverly observed. Eddie was swigging bourbon straight from the bottle. And yes, the physical difference would play a major part in the overall tolerance, if indeed Fats was imbibing.
Fats used alcohol and ultimately stamina to wear Eddie down, in effect, allowing Eddie to beat himself.
By the end of the movie, the lesson had been learned. Eddie went back to reclaim what was his; pool superiority. Fats by now was weary of the challenge, and knew he was a beaten man as soon as Eddie stood in front of him. He would simply allow the inevitable beating to run its course. -
Mad_Dog_Tannen — 12 years ago(September 19, 2013 04:42 PM)
It was tragic how Eddie got played in that first game, almost unbelievable, really. The fat man refused to cry uncle, so what, the stack Eddie won off Fats said it all, if he had walked out while he was ahead there would have been no question who was the better player. So Fats had to resort to dirty tricks, which revealed Fats to not only be an inferior pool player, but really a person with no integrity, too. If they had been playing tournament pool Eddie would have sent the fat man home early in the set.
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Uberlim — 12 years ago(October 09, 2013 04:36 PM)
must disagree, best line in the movie (apart from the monologue from Eddie when he explains to the girl how it feels when evtg connects, the cue being like a nerved limb) is @ the end when they show respect to one another (fats & fast:)
"dude u play a fine game of pool, u2 dude" xD that's the spirit.
anyway i perso found that movie depressing, a bit racist (roman, turk, jew hero, afromericans attendingzzz) & like so old school it doesn't really honor the game of pool, i saw much drink, cigarettes & pool-playing promotion (not that i don't indulge in any).
an interesting movie tho for som1 not born in this era & i get why many may have liked it back in the days.
''As Imbecile examines finger, Wise man sees who's watching Imbecile, & Moon gets intimacy.'' H.E -
marcjacobspants — 12 years ago(December 22, 2013 03:51 AM)
Yes it is all revealed in that last line but I think the deeper meaning of "you play a great game of pool" has to do with everything other than the game itself. Eddie learned the hard way it takes more than just skill, as gordon explains it takes inner character and that its the whole hustle that makes the game. And I don't think that is dirty or of low character, it is the environment they are in.
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IcySpoon — 10 years ago(July 26, 2015 04:18 PM)
How hard is it to start a sentence with a capital and to write out, "someone". Unfortunately, your writing looses its validity when you use text- speak instead of proper English. Additionally, if you're going to quote from the movie, it helps to use the actual quote instead of, "Dude"
It's never too late for remedial English.
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." Norman Maclean -
bangkokcameron — 12 years ago(December 08, 2013 08:28 PM)
What dirty tricks? He just played on Eddie's obvious character weakness - his ego Eddie chose to drink to show off. And the game wasn't a tournament, it was a match between pool hustlers, and on that basis, Eddie lost.
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biffer_spice — 12 years ago(December 20, 2013 01:43 AM)
As it were, no one beat Eddie Felson but Eddie Felson
well, yes. you're right in your post. it's the whole point of the film.
the film has nothing to do with his pool playing ability. it's not that that's in question. he's better than fats at pool, but not in control. he's a loser in life, despite being a winner at pool. that's why fats beats him in the end - he has no inner strength. just ability. witness how fats wipes down his cue, freshens himself up, and felson slumps in his chair. visual imagery showing the difference between the two. it's not so much about stamina, etc, as about self-control and inner character.
the whole film is about him learning the difference between being good at pool and being good at life, and it comes at a cost. it's why gordon's interested in him - he can profit off his talent because he's just a bum outside of it. -
gsmooth89 — 11 years ago(June 07, 2014 09:14 AM)
No matter how you cut it, Eddie lost in the first match. I dont care if Fats employed every trick, a win is a win. That is what winners do, they will do anything to win. It is up to Eddie to recognize those tricks and deal with them, for him to win.
Totally disagree with the post.
If I couldn't bite, I wouldn't growl.-chael sonnen