A Gay Movie?
-
Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — The Outsider
Jonesh54 — 20 years ago(March 30, 2006 09:01 AM)
Sorry to 'poop' on everyone's patriotic parade. I have a different angle on this film. Although I am gay, I just HATE it when gay folk make 'everyone' in History and certainly every film have a Gay subtext. But I have always seen "The Outsider" as a tragic gay love story at least from our hero's (Ira Hamilton Hayes) point of view. Ira and his best Marine buddy Jim Sorenson even joke about 'being in love' in one scene; Ira at least in the screen version certainly IS. After Sorenson's death on Iwo Jima, Ira behaves almost like his widow and drinks himself to death out of grief. This is a harrowing, wrenching film to watch, and for once - an amazing performance by Tony Curtis in the lead. I would love to know if the real life Ira Hayes was in fact gay. There is a biography- 'The Lost
Hero of Iwo Jima' or 'The Last Hero of Iwo Jima' but I have been unable to find it. Notably among American Indians/Native Americans- homosexuals have been
treated better than in the white American mainstream (even as a Third Gender-
"Berdache").
To those readers who think this gay-guy has 'read the gay theme into' "The
Outsider", I would cite the following. One of the reasons this film was not successful is that many of the reviewers DID (even in 1961) catch the theme.
Both 'The New York Times' and 'Variety' are worth checking-out, e.g. ('Variety'):
"relationship of the two menhas an uncomfortably unnatural ring here,"
Unnatural, at least for 1961. As 'painful' a film as "Brokeback Mountain". HJ -
lindasko1999 — 19 years ago(June 08, 2006 06:40 AM)
There's a movie coming out "soon", called "Flags of Our Fathers" (dir. by Clint Eastwood), which is about Iwo Jima adn Ira Hayes is one of the figures in it. I wonder if they will address this and handle it more graciously.
Linda -
xylonian-1 — 19 years ago(August 11, 2006 12:46 PM)
"After Sorenson's death on Iwo Jima, Ira behaves almost like his widow and drinks himself to death out of grief."
I saw this movie and missed all of this.perhaps I viewed it as one military man upset about his military platoon mates.
"It's only forgotten if you forget."
Wallace Dane Jurr -
jetco — 19 years ago(August 13, 2006 03:59 AM)
Please don't make me laugh..I suppose you would say the same thing about Audie Murphy and his best buddy in the movie To Hell abd Back. I recommend you read the book Flag of Our Fathers and you will understand the closeness men, boys really felt toward each other in bloody combat, and what post traumatic syndrome is.
-
Jonesh54 — 19 years ago(August 17, 2006 10:03 AM)
Jetco- If I were the ONLY one to think there "might" (repeat might) be a gay
subtext in "The Outsider", I'd 'laugh' too. But I'm not the first or by any means only viewer to wonder about it. Obviously the 'New York Times' and 'Variety' wondered about it too. I've known enough 'old timers' from World War II (inc. my late dad) and Vietnam who were 'scarred' by war. Just
like in the movies one minute you're standing a few feet from a buddy; the next a grenade has hit and only the feet are left!! Why even bother to make friends during wartime?! But NONE of these guys -ever- drank themselves to death over a mere 'friend'. In the movie Ira specifically 'loses it' because
of Sorenson. From what I've been able to search, 'Sorenson' was not a real person but a composite of the real life buddies from Iwo Jima. Does 'Sorenson'
represent a specific person (in the main) from Iwo? The movie has taken this liberty and created a one-on-one relationship (whether platonic or homosexual)
that may not have existed in Ira Hamilton Hayes' real life story. Unfortunately, no one has answered my question re: Ira's actual life vis-a-vis
homosexuality. Regards. -
Akimel52 — 19 years ago(September 16, 2006 07:03 AM)
I'm a Pima Indian from Arizona now living in Los Angeles. I've been aware of Ira Hamilton Hayes my entire life. My mother went to elementary school with Ira at the government-run Casa Blanca Day School on the Gila River Reservation.
She remembered Ira as a fun-loving boy who liked to tease the girls. There has never been any speculation about Ira's sexuality from anyone on the reservation, or in the entire state of Arizona ,past or present. The first time I was ever exposed to such gay assumptions was during the discussion period with director Delbert Mann and Tony Curtis after the screening of "The Outsider" at a Tony Curtis Film Retrospective here in Hollywood a few years ago. An audience member asked the panel if they were aware of the "homo-erotic undertones" depicted in the relationship of Ira and Sorenson. Mr. Curtis said there was nothing "un-natural" about the characters' friendship or the way they intended to portray it. I was surprised to learn that some reviewers of "The Outsider" in 1962 speculated on the mens' relationship. I just watched the movie with that in mind and I could see how the friendship could be interpreted that way. "The Outsider" takes many liberties in the way it portrays Ira Hayes. The run for the Pima Tribal Council seat was pure fiction, as was the way they portrayed Ira's death. He actually died in a Pima hut after drinking all night with his brother Kenny and friends. Ira spent some time here in Los Angeles as the chauffeur and baby-sitter for Dean Martin's wife Jeanne in the early 50's. It was her attempt at rehabilitating him. Ira's real life story was told in a book called "The Hero Of Iwo Jima" by William Bradford Huie. Was the real Ira Hayes gay? As far as I know he wasn't. But only he would've been the one to answer that question. -
Jonesh54 — 19 years ago(September 23, 2006 01:18 PM)
Thanks so much "Akime152". You have probably answered this decades-old question in the negative. In the 50s-early 60s Delbert Mann as a film director
was not afraid of 'adult' themes. But, evidently, it was NOT his intent to put
any- what we would now call- 'homoeroticism' in "The Outsider". If it's there,
it came in from the Jungian 'Collective Unconscious' or something! Films are
almost a 'living thing'; they take on a life of their own. Even Hitchcock was
'taken aback' by what "Psycho" was (in its time). Maybe Delbert Mann didn't check his rushes carefully. Maybe Tony Curtis (i.e. his character) looked at
James Franciscus a little too 'adoringly', and they should have done retakes!! -
gbhalleberry — 19 years ago(October 16, 2006 07:21 PM)
Thank you so much for the background to Mr. Hayes. I have enjoyed following Adam Beach's career, so I was very much interested in his character. I was heartbroken to read on-line about the government curtailing water access for the Pimas during Ira Hayes' lifetime. (However did they think they could justify that?!) Mr. Hayes was a great hero in my book. Our government (not our country) disses their tribe, but he stood the challenge and served the country. He's a great man , and I was very happy to see your posting, as someone from that very tribe. Thank you again for posting!
-
puddnhead83 — 18 years ago(May 03, 2007 03:19 PM)
Now THAT's the voice of authority. Thanks so much for filling us in regarding Mr. Hayes.
I'd forgotten all about "The Outsider" until seeing "Flags of Our Fathers" recently. I remember the film fondly as one of Tony Curtis's best performances and a gut-wrenching tragedy. I don't remember picking up on the homo-erotic undertones.
Nevertheless, thanks for giving me even more reasons to rent "Outsider" again. -
JoeZiehmer — 19 years ago(November 29, 2006 08:47 PM)
My Grandfather was a Corpsman in WWII he nearly drank himself to death after what he'd seen. Do you realize the Japanese would call up the Corpsman just to slaughter them? All it took was Corpsman up! The Japanese screamed it without accent and by that time my Grandfather carried a magnum. Even if you want to debate it as rumor the landing parties orders during Japanese surrender was IF THEY MOVE WIPE THEM OUT!!! My Grandfather could never stand killing anyone or watching anyone be killed but he managed not to drink himself to death. To often our war heroe's drink themselves to death or kill themselves. There's a war hero who hasn't returned from Iraq except in a buddy bag RIP Beau Boulier he stood up for me in High School. Weather Ira was gay or not it bears nothing for his character. In my training as a layman and as a straight man I've learned it doesn't matter weather your gay or not it matters if you've got heart. So, I don't bring up color, I don't bring up prefences, and I don't bring up any of for that matter. Jonesh I was trained as a Baptaist lay minister by a South African rev. who disliked gays and I simply can't approve of it anymore. There's to much hatred in the world and I'd rather welcome everyone as a friend if there a decent soul and kind heart.
Please understand me Jonesh I'm merely commenting on the effects of war. My Grandfather had been a cop even nearly drank himself to death after shifts with Vodka. I'd love to buy a drink for Beau he was my friend and kept me from getting bullied. Now, need it be said this is merely a write off for the reviewers comment but also for you to see the effects of war. It's a pity really my grandfather was a great guy even had a chance for a commision but he gave it up to save my great grandfather and he was a pig. -
gwriter4 — 19 years ago(October 12, 2006 01:11 PM)
Oh, Brother! You believe your own thinking. What projection! The director and star have stated their intent. But, NO, you THINK you know better. Others picked up on your slant, too, I seemore projection. There are two realities, only one is real; the one that is NOT real THINKS it is. Get a life, buddy!
-
Jonesh54 — 19 years ago(October 21, 2006 10:05 AM)
Thanks 'gwriter4', I have a good life. As to Tony Curtis, I'm a little hesitant to trust his recent opinions. He seems to go 'how the wind blows'. If he DID think that "The Outsider", had the subtext, I doubt that he'd admit it. Curtis and Don Murray were quoted for years as having "despised Marilyn Monroe". Now aging and seeing that Marilyn = $$$$, they "loved" her. Tony now says he had an affair with MM and does paintings of her. If the gay 'Advocate' magazine were to interview Tony Curtis about "The Outsider", trust me, it would suddenly be a gay movie. He will see which way the 'wind is blowing'. Evidently a lot of people did/do think the subtext IS there or Curtis and Delbert Mann wouldn't have been asked about it. I am a 'moderate' who voted twice for Ronald Reagan. I'm almost a 'Log Cabin Republican'. I hate it when gays 'read' gayness into History and into movies. If I have been guilty of this, I apologize. I really just wanted to know what other people
thought, especially since the film's 1962 reviews DID mention the alleged
SUBTEXT. I accept Delbert Mann's words as the 'reality'. I say 'uncle'. -
Jonesh54 — 19 years ago(October 27, 2006 11:52 AM)
Hi again, 'gwriter4'. No I'm not taking back my 'uncle'; I give up! But just to be EXACT: 'Akime152' said that Tony Curtis said that there was nothing 'un-natural' in the men's relationship. That is to say Ira and Sorenson had no homo-erotic 'thing' going on between them. Please note that the director Delbert Mann did NOT answer the question. To reiterate, I don't particularly trust Mr. Curtis' honesty. Despite what you think, 'buddy', the gay Subtext
issue in "The Outsider" remains unresolved. Personally, I'm bored with this and will let someone younger and 'gayer' take up the topic. Thanx.