Too well dressed?
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buffalo-955-775685 — 15 years ago(January 25, 2011 07:50 AM)
You missed my drift. Barny "took things into her own hands" with a piece of wood, as confessed to Fr. Morin. I'm not saying that every woman had to be a Lucie Aubrac. Just keep your hands off the oppressor.
To explain a human behavior does not justify it. One can explain why Hitler sought to exterminate European Jewry. Does that justify it?
France? A nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Not if your attitude is representative and I believe it is. Theroux had it right about the French: "unprincipled, insincere, and unreliable." That goes double for the so-called fairer sex.
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GrandeMarguerite — 15 years ago(January 25, 2011 08:00 AM)
Did I justify anything? No, I provided some explanations and a context.
For the third time: I am not saying that sleeping with the enemy is a good thing, but let's be realistic (or let's face things). Nothing more, nothing less.
I guess you are perfection itself to be so judgemental.
Too bad that DJRainer deleted his/her posts, because he/she was right about Theroux and your racist assumptions. Not to mention your sexist remarks, on top of everything else.
Remember: insults are used when you lack arguments. They reflect badly on the people who use them. -
GrandeMarguerite — 15 years ago(January 25, 2011 10:53 AM)
Funny, I was expecting this.
Don't be mistaken: it is not a "surrender", as you put it, it is just because you deserve despise and nothing but.
Let the readers of this thread be judges: they'll know well enough what kind of person you are at once. I understand that you need the Net to vent your xenophobic feelings while being unable to debate over anything you're not the only one but I'm not a shrink nor would I want to serve as an excuse for your distasteful behavior any longer. If you like to make a fool of yourself, it is your problem, not mine, and certainly you don't need me for this.
I put you on my ignore list from this moment on, so don't waste your time with an answer. -
GrandeMarguerite — 15 years ago(January 25, 2011 05:53 PM)
Don't feel obliged to go on this discussion if you don't feel like it.
I admit I became a little too impassioned at first. But see what happens each time someone tries to clear up some misconceptions about occupied France. The subject attracts bigots like a magnet. By doing this, I know I expose myself to insults (and to make things worse, I don't even hide my citizenship my English being not perfect, I think people would notice rather rapidly that it's not my mother tongue). I usually react when I see crap about France (and perhaps Europe in general) and on this Web site there is plenty. But once in a while, you meet fairly honest people
and it proves that this is not a complete waste of time (plus it is a way to practise my English). And sometimes I learn things in the process, when I look for evidence to make a point.
At least I do believe that you can disagree over a serious subject without insulting your contradictor, but unfortunately the Net is a like a henhouse (you know, the place where chickens breed). Anonymity does wonders when it comes to sling mud at someone.
As for Ptain, I'll never find an excuse for what he did. To think that the guy was a womanizer, that he was a brothels' customer and he was the champion of "pro-natality pro-family return-women-to-the-home" propaganda makes me sick (sorry, but here I react as a woman). And you've probably heard of the recent findings that he was indeed as anti-Semitic as could be, that he often implemented German commands with more zeal than had been requested.
Perhaps Vichy regime preserved Paris. I just don't know what to think: without Ptain, France would never have been the world's most visited country? Uh!
I read critics (in French) of Buisson's work. While his book is full of quotes, he only quotes collaborationist newspapers. An honest historian would have refer to all types of sources, given the subject. And in implying that life in Paris was "one big romp", he avoids discussing the real responsibilities, or rather he adopts pretty much Ptain's stance ("Our defeat came from our slackness. The pleasure principle has destroyed the spirit of sacrifice has built up. I urge you, first of all, to undertake an intellectual and moral reform." Ptain's address to the French, 25 June 1940). The problem with Patrick Buisson is that he is certainly very knowledgeable on WWII, but he distorts real facts to support his reactionary theories. And he is probably tendentious in what he does not show.
I tend to avoid this kind of literature precisely because it is tendentious, meant to water down the reality of Occupation in one way or another (and in the end to promote far right ideas).
Web sites in English rarely mention that Patrick Buisson comes from the far right and that he is not a historian.
That's very unfortunate, because it is something worth knowing. -
buffalo-955-775685 — 15 years ago(January 23, 2011 06:00 AM)
I do wish the two of you would take your pas de deux offline, you both prattle on ad nauseum, one quoting the right-winger Buisson, the other the left-winger Paxton.
Ah, but we have a neutral third party, the left-leaning writer Paul Theroux, who has traveled the world and met all types of people.
Here's his take: in "The Happy Isles of Oceania" he wrote "the French are unprincipled, insincere and unreliable."
Could the two of you be as concise as Theroux? On behalf of the fans of Army of Shadows, I thank you.
P.S. The idiot French President Sarkozy (<in the view of the Americans, according to the Wikileaks cables) apparently believes that Alsace-Lorraine is part of Germany. Is it any wonder that France is in the merde? Mon Dieu!
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GrandeMarguerite — 15 years ago(January 23, 2011 03:25 PM)
Thank you for your clever comments. Is that short enough? And yes, that's ironical. Since the French are unreliable (how racist is that, by the way?), you're not obliged to believe me.
Just like you're not obliged to read anything. If you are bored by our discussion, just skip it.
P.S.: Sarkozy has no culture, it is a well-known fact. Glad you've just found out. And before saying anything clever on people who elect such uneducated guys, let me remind you that "W" was not exactly the most refined of gentlemen either. -
GrandeMarguerite — 15 years ago(January 23, 2011 06:48 PM)
I think you should have written two different messages. I didn't realize at first that there was some stuff for me in your post, nor would I think that "Buffalo something" will read what you have to say (or won't he/she)?
Gripe #7: "
"We can't rely on these French." That depends on what you mean by "rely". If you expect the French to react like Americans, you will be disappointed. They are not Americans; they are French.
[]" That's why I like the "112 Gripes", it is full of common sense
. And it is funny (or sad) to see that there's nothing new under the sun, really.
Anyway, Sartre certainly pales in front of Camus and some others. I actually came across his sentence the other day. Too bad for such an "engag" writer. But Sartre was pretty blind too when it came to the Soviet Union (until he found out the truth, which certainly took him some time). Again, that the European ruling elites got off pretty easy during the war is nothing new, but has little to do with what most people experienced every day.
And again, when Arletty (who was one of the top French actresses of the time) slept with a Nazi officer, I can't see how it would turn her as a collaborator, for she never sent anyone to the concentration camps. Now, that you may find her behavior disgraceful is more a matter of opinion than anything else I think.
OK, since it is very late here, I would like to draw your attention on this:
http://historytoday.prod.acquia-sites.com/blog/news-blog/kathryn-hadle y/international-colloquium-sheds-new-light-denunciation-france-during- se
and more on the very same subject at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3543112/Petty- disputes-led-to-Nazi-denunciation-in-WWII-France.html
.
Henri-Georges Clouzot had captured the very essence of denouncement in his film "Le Corbeau", which was hated by both the Nazis and the French Resistance after the Liberation. If you like old movies, you should not miss this one.
One of our public channels broadcasts once in a while a miniseries (that will eventually turn into a large series) which is a very good one on WWII (the first time I find that a French series match its American counterparts!). More here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/5423276/French -TV-series-confronts-reality-of-wartime-collaboration.html
. I don't know if you can lay your hands on one of these DVDs abroad, but it's really worth watching it. -
Deusvolt — 15 years ago(January 25, 2011 03:35 PM)
I know some people have this caricature of the French as rather small and somewhat effete which I have not found to be true. I am thinking of the usually barrel chested fishermen of Marseille. Most Bretons are tall and big boned. And of course, many people from Alsace are of German descent and even speak Deutsch. That's why I blame the people in charge of casting. They didn't try very hard in getting the right "extras."