What if Michael's mother asked him to spare Fredo?
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puirt-a-beul — 10 years ago(September 28, 2015 04:08 PM)
Not a dumb question at all, b_paul.
Even though you've only just seen it for the first time, you might recall some key scenes that tell about Fredo's fate:
after Michael returned from Cuba, and was asking about what happened to Fredo, he says to Neri (who is, essentially, Michael's bodyguard and murderer-on-command) that he wants nothing to happen to Fredo while his mother is alive;
then when she dies, there's a scene at her wake where Fredo comes to Michael for reconciliation; Michael hugs Fredo to his chest, but looks over Fredo's head and catches Neri's eye; Neri lowers his eyes to the floor, knowing he's just been given the order to execute Fredo;
then, not long after, there's a scene where Fredo is telling Michael's son Anthony about how he caught a big fish by saying a Hail Mary; he's going to take Anthony out fishing on the lake, but Connie calls out to him that Michael wants to take Anthony into Reno. So Neri accompanies Fredo in the boat, and that's when Fredo is killed.
So yes, it was Fredo who gets shot out on the lake.
You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment. -
Fattycakes — 9 years ago(April 21, 2016 08:34 PM)
If the plot wanted it i am sure she could have found out and after losing Sonny & Vito i'd imagine that even a traditional background mother would not stand by idly.
I'd imagine some suppressed italian matriarch would surface and she would make him swear to spare Fredo. However, given Michael's ruthlessness i suspect it might still not be enough and if she was smart she would plan for after her death too by roping in Mary & Anthony to restrain him. I'd imagine that would be the only way for Fredo to survive. With all that emotional blackmail i suspect Michael might well relent as Fredo was no longer a threat. As the years went on i'd imagine he might well chill as more family was lost, he seemed sincerely remorseful about it later.
The problem however is that when Robert Duvall refused to reprise his role for part 3 they wrote him out and had him die. The actor for Fredo died in 1978 so even if they had originally written him to live, by the time they made the 3rd one they would have killed him by some other means.
It reminds me of the chinese anecdote whereby Cao Cao, a chinese warlord wanted to pass his position to his literarily accomplished son. The older brother was ruthless and schemed his way into inheriting it and killed another martial brother once his father was dead. He was about to kill the other brother but his mother intervened and made him promise to not do so. However he was ruthless and wanted to get rid of his brother so he set him a challenge, if his brother could make up a poem in the time he walked 7 steps about brothers but without mentioning brothers then he would spare him. If he failed then no one could lament his death as his fame would have been exposed to be lacking (dunno how he was going to use that to explain to his mother though). In the event the brother succeeded and was exiled instead. -
assenav_68 — 10 years ago(March 12, 2016 08:25 PM)
I also think Connie pretended to believe that Fredo drowned for Michael's sake. She saw how eaten up he was by his decision to have Fredo killed. He probably couldn't look her in the face if he knew that she knew the truth.
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puirt-a-beul — 10 years ago(March 12, 2016 08:34 PM)
Yes, I think you're right. If you look at the scene in GF III where she raises the subject, it's clear she's lying. And the subtext of that scene is that Connie's saying, "Michael, I'm on your side."
You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment. -
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An_Invisible_Dog — 10 years ago(November 23, 2015 10:17 AM)
I think it's inconceivable that she'd ever know or suspect such a thing as women were kept out of the business. Hence Connie's line to Sonny in the first film "Papa never talked business at the table" and then Michael telling Kay to "never ask me about my business". She was a modest, Italian wife, who knew her place.
But let's assume she did find out, you'd have to think she would confront Michael about it. She's not just gonna stand back and let her son murder one of her own?
That said Fredo does imply that Mama thought of him as the least favourable. When he's out with Michael he says "Mama used to tease me saying I wasn't her an and left by gypsies".
That said, I still don't think she'd stand by and let it happen without confronting Michael.
It's really a question of how detached Michael gets from his family. He's willing to cut off contact his wife and sister, murder his brother, banish his step brother from the business, murder his brother in law, but would he want to cut off ties with his mother? He clearly loved her as shown by the scene where he seeks her for family advice and given that he spares her the grief of losing another son.
But ultimately if she went to him knowing that he was planning to kill Fredo, would he really have gone through with it? Maybe, but after she died, like in the film.
Not one to lose sleep over though. -
robk86 — 10 years ago(November 27, 2015 12:37 PM)
My answer is "No".
For one, I don't think Mama Corleone would ever find out. You can't be successful in that business if you let slip who you are going to whackand that goes for all levels of the hierarchy.
Second, women were not involved in the Family business. Even if she were to find out and appeal to Michael, he was under no obligation to listen to her. He'd probably still do what he did in the film and wait until she passed to carry out the deed. Or if he were in a hurry and couldn't wait, he'd probably have it carried out in such a way that it would look like a suicide (see the prostitute's death to see how cunning mobsters can be). Besides, let's be real: If Michael is at the point where he is really considering killing his own brother, can we really expect him to change his mind for any reason? That's not exactly a decision you make lightly.
Michael had made up his mind when he found out that Fredo knew information regarding the Congressional hearings that he withheld from him. The best opportunity Fredo had of surviving would have been to go home with Michael when Michael called for him outside the presidential palace in Cuba. He then should have told the truth about everything on the plane ride home. The fact that Fredo ran from his brother, hid from him for so long, expressed his frustration with being "passed over", and then withheld information from him shows that he could never be trusted. Mama could not convince Michael of otherwise.
"Simpsons did it! Simpsons did it!" -
Noir-It-All — 10 years ago(April 01, 2016 01:27 PM)
In the novel, Mama AND the Don told Santino to not "interfere" when Carlo was beating Connie. After Connie ran home for shelter, her mother told Connie that Vito never beat her because she had given him any reason to. (Connie was so shocked at this that she told Carlo about it!)
Later in the novel, Tom observed that Mrs. Corleone survived by NOT perceiving what was going on, the effect the criminal activity was having on the health and welfare of the members of her family.
Would Mrs. Corleone make an exception for Fredo? She wouldn't notice and, if she did, would not interfere.
"Two more swords and I'll be Queen of the Monkey People." Roseanne -
april_rain — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 07:47 AM)
I agree with this answer
If Mrs Corleone knew about the hit, she would have definitely confronted Michael and begged him to spare Fredo. Michael would assure her while she was alive and follow through with the kill after she had passed on.
Michael had made up his mind when he found out that Fredo knew information regarding the Congressional hearings that he withheld from him.
Yes. Only he knew the level of Fredo's betrayal. Fredo had many chances to come clean but he blows them all due to his misplaced ego. He shows no remorse for his betrayal and still laments about breaking free. That ship had sailed long time back. He was too weak and passive to build something for himself and still had a growing sense of entitlement. That means, he would continue to be a loose cannon and endanger Michael and others at the behest of an outsider.
When you look at Michael's face as he gives the order to Al Neri(both scenes), you can tell how tortured his mind was. He is making a decision that goes dead against his biological instincts and the strong family ties his Father had instilled in him.
The whole Fredo storyline was way too tragic to watch.