What are the reasons for Barry's downfall?
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cathyrobertson — 9 years ago(December 30, 2016 12:17 AM)
I saw this film years ago in 1988, and felt for the stepson, Lord Bullington, but after getting the DVD for Christmas and watching it for the first time in almost 30 years, I think Lord Bullington was a spoiled and self-entitled jerk, and Momma's boy. I totally sympathized with him at the time being a young adult, but my view has changed.
I'm not going to express myself so eloquently as some of you did into the complexities of the characters, but that he humiliated his stepfather and mother in the company of others, airing his grievances in such a public and petty manner, he deserved that beating and more. Why others didn't see that, and that Barry Lyndon was the villain is a mystery to me since most the the aristocracy at that time weren't saints, either. Would they have like a spoiled child making such a public furor? It didn't make sense to me.
Then challenging his stepfather to a duel when he was grieving the loss of his son, and punishing himself with guilt made me even more angry. Lyndon was so broken and wanted no more quarrel he fired his gun into the ground, but his stepson took another shot and guffawed with glee.
When I first saw the film years ago, I thought Lord Billington was angry about his half-brother's death, but no, he was just a pompous jerk hellbent on revenge at the worst time of his stepfather's life.
I don't think I will read the novel as it seems too depressing. -
SealedCargo — 5 years ago(April 10, 2020 05:09 AM)
if he blew his head off, he'd have nothing. if he didn't do it, he'd have nothing. it was a nothing/nothing situation. killing a lord would have gotten him arrested.
The Fearmakers Blog
https://thefearmakers.blogspot.com/ -
TravisChaplin — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 02:50 PM)
Barry never really fit in anywhere he went. He was too inhibited to ravish his cousin, though she was clearly giving him the green light ( he was as confused by the " Irish Way" as Captain Quin was). He also couldn't make it as a fugitive, as he was robbed right away. He was most at home in the army, winning his comrades' respect by beating his fellow soldier in a fight. He was able to get out of the army by assuming an officer's identity, which led to him spying on the Chevalier ( and disguising himself as the Chevalier at one point, another assumed identity). Him and the Chevalier go into business together conning people in card games ( in a way, another disguise).
Barry tried to continue this strategy of assuming others identities by trying to position himself as an aristocrat ( though he never had a title). Barry's downfall came from the fact that he could never fully assume this identity, he couldn't shake who he really was. The old solider in him came out when he publicly beat his stepson ( notice how that scene and the boxing scene are filmed in similar manners). In the end, he was condemned to being just another footnote in history. But, in a way, everyone is. -
tieman64 — 10 years ago(June 18, 2015 01:07 PM)
Could Barry help not falling down? He sounded misplaced among the aristocrats and high society
It's a bit like Napoleon, Kubrick's scuttled film project.
Both Barry and Napoleon are "lowly" outsiders who force their way into high-society, and both are disparaged by the old aristocratic/royal order. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 06, 2015 11:54 AM)
Re: Barry's downfall. Imo we hear the narrator over the course of the film make observations which are not entirely reliable. What then to make of the assertion that in effect Barry was the sort who could accumulate a fortune, but not maintain one. But I think ultimately the problem for him as a practical matter was Bullingdon.
In the novel Barry's troubles are with a variety of the members of Lady Lyndon's family. These are compressed in the film into Bullingdon and his role in the narrative.
A major problem for Barry was obviously his attempt to gain a title. While this was a matter of intention on his part, it was of a defensive sort, desired to protect his son, Brian. And it was in fact likely that Bullingdon would not be wholly generous to his half brother when he got the chance.
I think the film suggests that Barry was having some financial issues prior to the attempt to obtain a title. But they were likely manageable, and it was really the title effort that was so problematic for him and for hte Lyndon estate. What made that even worse was that the effort failed, and then it was that the creditors swooped down on him, and that was primarily of Bullingdon's doing as well.
Add in that not only did Bullingdon cripple Barry in a cowardly fashion, he engineered the separation of Barry from Lady Lyndon in a way that served Bullingdon's own interests, but not really of Lady Lyndon's.
So it would seem that the simple answer to the OP's question was Bullingdon. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 10, 2015 01:56 PM)
Surely, it is obvious that lack of love for his wife and stepson, and especially his disrespect for her, were the seeds of his downfall. This is what caused Bulingdon's hate and also necessitated the acquiring of a title to mitigate any negative consequence.
Or, one could say he was a rogue and that the reason. High society had already accepted him, so that was not the problem. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 13, 2015 09:58 AM)
ah, the old Defense of Bullingdon perspective. Both the film and novel make clear that Bullingdon did not like Barry from the very beginning, before Barry cheated on Lady Lyndon. The novel also made clear that Lady Lyndon's family in general never approved of Barry, disliking his lower class and Irish lineage.
You have the causes and effects wrong. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 13, 2015 10:23 AM)
This has no bearing on my argument. The question was what led to his downfall. It is completely to be expected that the son will not initially like the step father, especially a son attached to the mother. In the film, Barry did not give Bullingdon any reason to like him, quite the opposite. He danced in, seduced Bullingdon's mother and immediately started lording it over the boy. Later, he disrespected the mother, was brutal to the son and was squandering the son's inheritance created by the family lineage.
Why should Bullingdon "like" him? -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 10:15 AM)
First of all by the time Bullingdon had really sought to take Barry down, there had been a raproachement between Barry and Lady Lyndon. This was clear not only from the encounter during Lady Lyndon's bath but from the more telling way in which Lady Lyndon did not oppose Barry's effort to obtain a title, and in effect supported it by agreeing to the expenditures involved. Yet in self serving fashion Bullingdon created the spectacle during the musical performance, which was supplemented by the spreading of rumors about alleged mistreatment of him by Barry. This effectively ended Barry's efforts, and it was no coincidence that this protected Bullingdon from any claims by his half brother.
Earlier on it is true that Bullingdon witnessed the wooing of his mother by Barry, but also with the advice from the narrator that Bullingdon was uncommonly attached to his mother. Then, shortly after the marriage, we have this conversation between Reverand Runt and Bullingdon:
Reverand Runt: My Lord Bullingdon, you seem particularly glum today? You should be happy that your mother has remarried.
Bullingdon: Not in this way. And not in such haste.
(pause)
And certainly not to this man.
Runt: I think you judge your mother too harshly.
(pause)
Do you not like your new father?
Bullingdon: Not very much. He seems to me little more than a common opportunist.
(pause)
I don't think he loves my mother at all.
And it hurts me to see her make such a fool of herself.
This was before there was ANY indication of infidelity between Barry and Lady Lyndon.
While in the sequence of events Barry dallying with Brian's nursemaid follows, this is after Brian's birth and the passage of time. No doubt Bullingdon was struck on seeing that dalliance. But he was not present when Barry then made up to Lady Lyndon, and then of course was the occasion when Bullingdon would not kiss Barry goodbye in front of several people, much to Lady Lyndon's displeasure. Bullingdon accused her of insulting the memory of his father, Lord Lyndon, again much to Lady Lyndon's displeasure.
At that point, Barry punished Bullingdon for I believe the first time, advising him that as others "serve" him, so he will treat them. Then the narrator advises:
Barry believed, and not without some reason, that it had beena declaration of war against him by Bullingdon from the startand that the evil consequences that ensued were entirely of Bullingdon's creating.
Now of course the word some indicates a lessening of the charge, but I think it clear in the context of the manner of Thackeray's writing, this was merely included out of ironic understatement. By that point Bullingdon had been described as fixated on his mother, had felt he knew better than her when it was appropriate to remarry (after a year since Lord Lyndon'd death), cast aspersions on Barry's background, and then insulted him in front of others. And this was all before the business of pursuing a title began.
And then of course the specific and particular effect of Bullingdon shooting Barry's leg off and the practical effect that had cannot be underestimated, coming as it did out of an act of self serving cowardice in his part, not accepting that Barry could have easily and justifiably killed him, but chose not to do so.
And all of this in self serving terms. It would have been another thing if Bullingdon was acting in concert with his mother, pursuant to her wishes. but he was not.
I frankly never understand what kind of aberrant view of human nature would lead someone to take Bullingdon's side in all this. For myself I had merely noted the cause and effect of Bullingdon's presence in Barry's life and its relation to his downfall. I have not defended Barry, and certainly do not think he was without fault, not by a long shot.
But continue defending Bullingdon if you must. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 01:28 PM)
I frankly never understand what kind of aberrant view of human nature would lead someone to take Bullingdon's side in all this.
First, I am not "taking sides", I am strive to understand both characters. However, it is a simple fact that the movie shows Bullingdon's assessment of Bary to have been correct:
Bullingdon: Not very much. He seems to me little more than a common opportunist.
(pause)
I don't think he loves my mother at all.
And it hurts me to see her make such a fool of herself.
His assessment is correct and his love for his mother and his attachment to her are not to be criticized, they are virtues. Furthermore, you seek to equate the responsibility of a child with the responsibilities of the newcomer adult, which is most unfair, especially in the view of how little Barry brought to the family and how much he took from them.
Having said that, I was not at all "defending" Bullingdon, I was giving my opinion as to where it all went downhill for Barry, or if you prefer, I am critical of Barry. Although it must be said that the movie presents both sides of both of them, the good and the bad. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 01:39 PM)
No one is NOTHING MORE than a common opportunist. The class based animus there reeks. Elsewhere Bullingdon refers to Barry's Irishness in virtually racist terms. You must have missed that part.
I also do not think it clear Barry has no love for Lady Lyndon.
Finally if you do not see that Bullingdon has an unnatural attachment to his mother, well
No doubt Bullingdon saw things in Barry he did not like, and there were certainly things in Barry to not like. But he was primarily motivated by self interest and gave expression to class based and ethnically unacceptable bases for hating Barry. Also unforgiveable was the way he reached the conclusion about the best way to deal with Barry without consulting with his mother at every step of the way.
His is a perfect example of an expressed chivalry hiding a condescension and pursuit of his own self interest.
Did you not feel it was a problem that Bullingdon proceeded with the duel after Barry shot into the ground? What kind of person would do such a thing? -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 09:52 PM)
Did you not feel it was a problem that Bullingdon proceeded with the duel after Barry shot into the ground? What kind of person would do such a thing?
As I said, the movie presented both sides of both characters. This was Barry's finest moment, and in Bullingdon hate won over. On the other side, he was scared out of his whits to be dueling Barry, but he stood his ground for what he believed were his rights and his mother's.
The picture painted is not black and white, it is realistic.
You seem to be very touchy about the class and ethnicity, judging it by the standards of our times, instead of the standards of the times of the tale.
Regarding the great love of Barry for Lady Lyndon, that idea was blown away by the contemptuous way he was blowing smoke in her face right after the wedding. There's isn't much in the film to depict it. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 15, 2015 06:44 AM)
I didn't say Barry had a GREAT love for Lady Lyndon. You said he had none. I win.
Standards of the times do not excuse the toxicity of his views. Was it in your view okay for titled people in the 18th Century to look at the lower classes as subhuman, or to have a prejudice against people from other European countries?
In any event my point is that Bullingdon was the major source of Barry's downfall, and that much (never said all) of Bullingdon's animus was there all along. To be specific Barry may have exacerbated Bullingdon's hatred, but there was more than enough hatred there all along.
The self interest angle also cannot be disputed. As Lord Lyndon's son Bullingdon's interests were adverse to not only Barry's, whose financial involvement in the Lyndon wealth was tied to no more than Lady Lyndon's life estate, but also even of Bullingdon's half brother Brian, since Brian had none of Lord Lyndon's blood and in fact was in any event Bullingdon's junior. In that sense Bullingdon's position was even adverse to Lady Lyndon's as respects her own interest in her second son.
But of course Bullingdon did not concede he acted out of self interest, which was part of his hypocrisy.
I think I have laid out my points here, and you seem to prefer offering red herrings in response. That being the case, have a nice day. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 15, 2015 07:11 AM)
But of course Bullingdon did not concede he acted out of self interest, which was part of his hypocrisy.
Actually, in the film, he says it explicitly before the audience at the big breakup. He mentions Barry's disrespect for his mother and the squandering of his own inheritance.
Standards of the times do not excuse the toxicity of his views. Was it in your view okay for titled people in the 18th Century to look at the lower classes as subhuman, or to have a prejudice against people from other European countries?
We are each born into an certain environment and worldview, in my experience, very few people are able to transcend it. What is normal today, will be unthinkable tomorrow. Bullingdon definitely had some toxic views, but the whole film makes it quite clear that his assessment of Barry's character was largely on the spot.
Your problem seems to be that you have fallen in love with the rascally nature of the scoundrel and are, at the same time, deeply offended by the class distinction and ethnic prejudice that was practically universal at that time. This colors your assessment of the characters with too much leniency towards Barry's faults and no understanding for Bullingdon's. The film maker went into much trouble to avoid this black-and-white portrayal of either character and imbued them both with faults, as well as virtues. This is to be praised after all, it is the film maker's skills that we are commenting, are we not? -
Felixthecat34213 — 10 years ago(December 13, 2015 09:50 PM)
Having said that, I was not at all "defending" Bullingdon, I was giving my opinion as to where it all went downhill for Barry, or if you prefer, I am critical of Barry. Although it must be said that the movie presents both sides of both of them, the good and the bad.
Why? He's the only responsible adult in this film. He stood up like a man and took care of his family's estate, balance their finances, and care for his grieving mother because Barry was poisonous to her. Not once do we see Bary comfort his heartbroken wife over the death of their son. Instead he drinks himself into oblivion.
Redmund Barry was a better man when he had nothing at all and no concept of the world around him. Perhaps this was the message of the 19th century novel, when class distinctions were so important to people.
I don't really see Bullingdon as a coward. He did what he thought he had to do to get rid of Barry. (Again he was poisonous to him and his mother.) -
trisul — 10 years ago(December 13, 2015 10:51 PM)
He stood up like a man and took care of his family's estate, balance their finances, and care for his grieving mother because Barry was poisonous to her.
Yes, that he did.
I think we largely agree about the characters. If you look back at the thread, it is about the reasons for Barry's downfall, and my though was:
Surely, it is obvious that lack of love for his wife and stepson, and especially his disrespect for her, were the seeds of his downfall.
This was interpreted by some as a "defense of Bullingdon and unfair to Barry. I don't think so. I think the movie tries not to paint either character black or white entirely, giving some good and bad aspects of each in order to allow us to think about the situation and the issues and not just fall for one character or the other. -
Felixthecat34213 — 10 years ago(December 14, 2015 01:18 PM)
This was interpreted by some as a "defense of Bullingdon and unfair to Barry. I don't think so. I think the movie tries not to paint either character black or white entirely, giving some good and bad aspects of each in order to allow us to think about the situation and the issues and not just fall for one character or the other.
LOL I knowthis poster is ludicrous. The story is certainly black and white, but Barry was never a good man to his wife and step son.