So underrated 'anti-western'!
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — The Missouri Breaks
jc-scott — 21 years ago(December 13, 2004 09:35 AM)
This seems to be a film that you either love or hate, and I happen to be of the former. Personally, I saw a great script elevated to a terrific movie by two super performances: Brando's somewhat bizarre turn (was he Irish?) as Clayton was very effective, but the real star was Nicholson who gave a subtle, yet potent, turn as Logan. I can't see how he was ignored (or indeed how the entire movie was) by Oscar in a year when Sly Stallone - good as he was - picked up a nomination for Best Actor. Oh well, I appreciate you, Jack
And also, is this the only ever 'anti-western' (an expression that's been used to describe it a couple of times)? -
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rrebenstorf — 21 years ago(December 28, 2004 04:04 PM)
I join you in your high praise of this masterpiece "anti-western." It's one of my favorite films of all time.
I think the term suggests the same kinds of things people think about when they label protagonists as "anti-heroes." The line between the good guys and bad guys gets blurred in moral ambiguity. It was a key feature in many films of the 70s, not just the westerns.
For the roots of the anti-western, you would do well to look no further than Nicholson's own filmography. I refer to the movies he starred in and wrote in the late late 60s/early 70s such as The Shooting and Ride the Whirlwind. Of course, you could argue that Sergio Leone and Sam Peckinpah were also re-inventing the western at the time.
More good examples of the sub-genre would be Arthur Penn's other westerns The Left-Handed Gun (which may have started it all) and Little Big Man_. Also, The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean (as suggested by another poster on this thread), Robert Altman's McCabe & Mrs. Miller, and Peter Fonda's The Hired Hand. Fans of Missouri Breaks would probably appreciate these films as well. At least I do. -
teejay6682 — 21 years ago(December 29, 2004 08:37 AM)
i love and own a lot of films that are considered "anti-westerns" "mccabe and mrs. miller, unforgiven, once upon a time in the west, the hired hand, heaven's gate, high plains drifter, the wild bunch, the ballad of cable hogue are all in my collection. i also love monte hellman's the shooting, the missouri breaks, peckinpah's pat garrett and billy the kid etc. but i don't consider these "anti-westerns" just westerns.
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rrebenstorf — 21 years ago(December 29, 2004 02:51 PM)
It sounds like we have similar collections at least in the western category. And I agree that, like any label, "anti-western" may not be a very useful term. Obviously, it is possible to love both traditional and non-traditional westerns without contradiction.
I think the term is only helpful in explaining why some fans of the western genre don't care for the kind of western that challenges the conventions of the very genre that they love. Perfectly understandable, and I think Missouri Breaks is the kind of western that tends to alienate many purists.
But what exactly is an anti-western? Robert Altman used the term himself when he described his McCabe & Mrs. Miller. He called the film an "anti-western" because the film turns a number of Western conventions on their sides, " including male dominance and the heroic standoff; gunplay is a solution only after reputation, wit, and nonviolent coercion fail; and law and order do not always prevail." The point that often gets lost, in my opinion, is that many of these so-called anti-westerns show a deep and genuine respect for the genre that they are supposedly subverting. So, for some of us, they aren't killing the genre so much as they are breathing in new life. -
rrebenstorf — 21 years ago(December 30, 2004 10:53 AM)
That may very well be true. There are people who just don't like westerns, period. Just like there are people who don't like horror movies. Or romantic comedies, etc. Good, bad, or indifferent, it's just not their cup of tea.
To your specific point, however, I know at least one counter-example. My wife thinks traditional westerns are mostly simplistic, reactionary, and corny (we agree to disagree). But she is quite fond of McCabe & Mrs. Miller, The Missouri Breaks, High Plains Drifter, and many of the others under discussion. And she loves Sergio Leone films. "So, you like westerns," I tell her.
"No," she replies. "I just like good movies." -
jc-scott — 21 years ago(January 08, 2005 05:12 AM)
teejay6682 - I wouldn't call 'Once Upon A Time In The West' an 'anti-western'. Leone himself set out to create 'the ultimate western' (a feat I think he achieved). 'Missouri Breaks' and 'Judge Roy Bean' are 'anit-westerns' if there ever were ones in how they defied conventions with their quirky characters and somewhat rambling storylines.
P.S. Henry Fonda as OUATITW's Frank? Best Western villain ever. -
rrebenstorf — 21 years ago(January 08, 2005 10:31 AM)
I agree with most of what you've said. OUATITW is not only my favorite western of all time, it is also my all-time favorite movie. Your P.S. indicates, however, a choice by Leone to go against convention. Henry Fonda was known by audiences until then as the good guy (blue-eyed and ruggedly handsome), and they were stunned (if not put off) by his brilliant badness in the film. Similarly, Leone wanted to cast William Hurt opposite Robert DeNiro in Once Upon a Time in America. DeNiro felt that audiences wouldn't buy it, and he insisted that James Woods be chosen instead. Because DeNiro held all the financial clout, Leone wasn't allowed to try to make lightning strike twice with subversive casting.
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rettdog — 21 years ago(January 15, 2005 06:35 PM)
I don't really agree with the label "anti-western." Over the years I have used the term "revisionist Western" because the conventions of the genre are being revised, not necessarily neglected. These films (Missouri Breaks, Little Big Man, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, etc.) are a reaction to the traditional aspects of the western and the genre is being used to communicate the themes of the time in which they were made (1960's-70's.) If these films are "anti" anything, they are anti-establishment. Arthur Penn is known for his revisionist genre films: Bonnie and Clyde (gangster), Mickey One (Detective), Little Big Man (Western.) Some films and directors do this better than others and Penn is one of the best.
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rrebenstorf — 21 years ago(January 16, 2005 11:50 AM)
Yes, I agree that "revisionist" is a better term, because "anti-western" implies that the genre is being attacked when, in fact, the best genre revisers are trying instead to expand the possibilities of storytelling within the genre. Arthur Penn is truly one of the greats in his approach to this kind of genre filmmaking he also gave us a brilliant revision of the private detective in Night Moves. Altman, too, has had great success in expanding the possibilities of other movie genres: MAS*H (war), The Long Goodbye (detective), 3 Women (thriller), and yes, Popeye (musical).
Perhaps the best example of a true "anti-western" would be Blazing Saddles? -
sexylikedexy — 21 years ago(January 19, 2005 01:24 PM)
mr scott,
i agree that this is one of the great "anti-westerns". You may think my opinion is somewhat undermined by the fact that i haven't seen it. However, I know someone who has seen it. He says it's good though he cannot always be trusted (the man don't like Eternal Sunshine and he can't get enough of Gigli). On a more serious note I still think Brando's best performance was in Streetcar Named Desire.
Your friend
Mr Sexy -
joekiddlouischama — 18 years ago(January 28, 2008 04:35 AM)
My wife thinks traditional westerns are mostly simplistic, reactionary, and corny (we agree to disagree). But she is quite fond of McCabe & Mrs. Miller, The Missouri Breaks, High Plains Drifter, and many of the others under discussion. And she loves Sergio Leone films. "So, you like westerns," I tell her.
Perhaps she prefers "revisionist" or "post-revisionist" Westerns, ones with a modernistic ethos and style. -
brucedgo — 12 years ago(September 26, 2013 09:13 PM)
"So, you like westerns," I tell her.
"No," she replies. "I just like good movies."
A woman after my own heart.
There are "genres" of movies I usually dislike e.g. low-budget horror but there isn't any genre that I mostly like. It's got to be good (re my own opinion).
and the rocks it pummels.- James Berardinelli