Does the book explain why her mother abused her and disliked her?
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alluneedisone — 11 years ago(October 21, 2014 04:26 AM)
I just recently read the book for our Biopsych class. Hattie not only abused Sybil, but other children as well. She would babysit them, and during that time, she would sexually abuse them, and Sybil saw all of this happen. Hattie would touch the genitals of the girls she would babysit while playing "horsey" and there was a time when Sybil saw her in bed, nude, with a baby boy between her legs. Her history is included in the book, as well as possible psychological and genetic illnesses that could have been passed on to her and to Sybil. I would recommend reading the book FIRST before watching the movies.
I want to be like water. I want to slip through fingers but hold up a ship. -
eileen-guthrie555 — 9 years ago(September 19, 2016 07:04 PM)
You also need to remind people that Dr. Wilbur was a Freudian Psychiatrist, and Freud believed everything revolved around sex. So, some of the things in Dr. Wilbur's notes and some of the recording are her interpretations of the things Shirley revealed during hypnosis. Doesn't mean they happened, although I believed doctors did a physical examines on Shirley and did determined that she had been molested, rather violently. Both Shirley and Mattie were diagnosed as schizophrenic as well as other mental illnesses. I believe they said that Shirley had OCPD and was much later in life thought to have been bipolar. But, these were illnesses at the time in their lives to have never been given a name. Everything was lumped into a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
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eileen-guthrie555 — 9 years ago(September 19, 2016 06:11 PM)
I remember a section that described Sybil's father coming into her bedroom in his robe, but with his privates exposed.
That has since been revealed to never have happened. Her parents were both Seventh-Day Adventist and they obsessively feared masturbation/sex was to be blamed on degenerate behavior due to meat, gravy, butter, jam, eggs, pastry, white bread, coffee, pepper, tobacco, tea, beer, and liquor. Her parents were on another planet. So, very unlikely. It was Dr Wilbur's misinterpreted of the event when Sybil had her tonsillectomy. Her mother tricked her into the hospital and her parents held her down while doctors examined her. She went through surgery and she was traumatized by that event and feared hospitals for the rest of her life. So, that never happened just another one of Dr Wilbur's Freudian psychiatry theories that was false. -
fiatlux-1 — 17 years ago(January 21, 2009 02:51 PM)
I don't think Hattie's abuse was for her own sexual gratification, but then again she was said to molest children in the neighborhood as well. I do think Hattie's abuse was anger-oriented not sexual.
In the book, its speculated that not only did Hattie's mental illness contribute to her atrocious acts upon Sybil.but her suppressed rage was a huge factor. Hattie had harbored rage for many years, beginning with her father who yanked her out of school for no reason to work in the family music store.
Her dream was torn apart, and her illness appeared to get worse around this time.
Then, even though she was said to enjoy caring for other's babies she was uncertain whether she wanted one of her own. But that is what women were 'expected' to do, and Willard most likely wanted a child so Hattie had one (after several miscarriages).
She, combined with her illness, took her rage out on Sybil.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush." -
cookiela2001 — 14 years ago(May 18, 2011 02:07 PM)
In addition to Hattie's own individual frustrations and mental-makeup that shaped her behavior, the book describes mental illness and suicides as featuring in both Hattie and Willard's family trees. Especially on Hattie's, as I seem to recall.
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Sponiatowski — 14 years ago(May 19, 2011 11:47 AM)
Hattie's torture of Sybil has echoes of abortion and birth control methods of the time-period. Hattie's many miscarriages before Sybil was born may be because a butcher-type abortion had been performed on her. It's possible Hattie's father was so afraid Hattie would get pregnant that he performed enemas/douches on Hattie and later perfrormed a D&C with a kitchen knife or buttonhook. In those days a young girl "being whisked out of advanced education" was often the result of a "unwed mother" scenario. And often parental abuse is "inherited", the abuser re-enacting their own abuse on their children.
I think Hattie may have been molested by her father who performed enema's and douches on her afterwards and , because they were ineffective as birth control, performed a D&C on her when he got her pregnant.
!!!Scrooge for President!!! -
Sponiatowski — 14 years ago(May 20, 2011 07:40 AM)
It never stops if just the thought of a person or the whiff of disinfectant causes a person to disassociate. That's why it's the "cycle" of abuse.
I can't find much information on Hattie, but I believe that she went back to the "rest" home where she eventually died.
This quote about her is from Wikipedia: Shirley "Sybil" Mason was born and raised in Dodge Center, Minnesota, the only child of Walter Mason (a carpenter and architect) and Martha Alice "Mattie" Hageman. In regard to Mason's mother: "many people in Dodge Center say Mattie" "Hattie" in the book "was bizarre," according to Bettie Borst Christensen, who grew up across the street. "She had a witch-like laugh.She didn't laugh much, but when she did, it was like a screech." Christensen remembers Mason's mother walking around after dark, looking in the neighbors' windows. At one point, Mason's mother was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
The IMDB Topic: "I wonder what 'Hattie' would have thought of the book and movie?" offers differing opinions on what happened to Hattie.
!!!Scrooge for President!!! -
Skylightmovies — 14 years ago(July 01, 2011 03:57 AM)
This makes a lot of sense to me.
If talented creative people are abused it's bound to cause severe depression directly proportional to the kind of abuse and how that personality is able to express it. It's only a question of how that will manifest it self later on.
Geez, that never ending cycle HAS to be broken and maybe Shirley managed that in her own way by sadly never having children of her own. -
fiatlux-1 — 14 years ago(July 10, 2011 08:03 PM)
Sadly, Sybil (Shirley) was told she'd likely never bear a child because of the internal scarring from Hattie's abuse. I wonder if she ever tried though.
It seemed that she wanted children on one level, and didn't on another. Very understandable there, given her past.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush." -
indy_go_blue44 — 14 years ago(July 14, 2011 04:49 PM)
Just about anything that can be said other than the documentation in the book is pure speculation. Hattie definitely had an abivalence about having children, we know she miscarried (IIRC) at least 3 times, and she was severely confined (ie, bedrest and close observation) during her pregnancy with Sybil, so it doesn't seem likely that Wilbur had anything to do with attempting or actually aborting her. She was 14 when her sister left home and she was TOLD that she was going to work in her parent's music store (demolishing her dreams of being a concert pianist) and in those days you didn't argue with your parents. Following this job placement, she did become severely depressed and as far as I can tell, this is when her problems started but that's speculation also.
I imagine 99% of this generation of kids would think they were abused if they were raised by 1900 parents.. and they may be right. It was a different world, and a man's home was definitely his castle, and he was lord of the keep. -
fiatlux-1 — 14 years ago(September 02, 2011 11:41 PM)
Agreed, anything else is conjecture.
Following this job placement, she did become severely depressed and as far as I can tell, this is when her problems started but that's speculation also.
I think the novel had mentioned that Hattie had shown signs of schizophrenia from youth, but it became virulent when she was forced to leave school and her dreams were crushed.
It also almost looks like it got worse yet again when or around when Sybil was born (maybe because of the ambivalence and stressor of having a baby), and again when Sybil was five and Walter went broke.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush." -
fiatlux-1 — 14 years ago(January 07, 2012 09:22 PM)
Hattie dreamed of being a concert pianist. But when her sister got married, her father yanked her out of school and forced her to work in the family music store.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush." -
fiatlux-1 — 11 years ago(December 15, 2014 03:26 PM)
OP: the mother was schizophrenic. This was explained explicitly in the movie. Are you really that dense?
Schizophrenia in no way "guarantees" someone will be violent or sexually abusive.
That is an incorrect stereotype.
I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus.
Didn't he discover America?
Penfold, shush.