Spoiler alert
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CGSailor — 10 years ago(December 02, 2015 01:05 PM)
the US did executed spies/ saboteurs in WW2
Either "The US
executed
spies"
Or "the US
did execute
spies"
"did executed" is bad English.
But I am not here to be a grammar nazi, on to the point:
I never made a claim they didn't. Of course we executes spies and saboteurs.
But that was not the point being made by you nor argued against by me.
The point made by you was that they would execute him as a spy saboteur simply for not having proper credentials (papers). That is utter bullsh!t. There were tens of thousands of Americans in the US that for whatever reasons, did not have documented evidence proving who they are. Again, the US was not acting like the Soviet Union, where you could and did end up getting executed as a spy simply because you could not prove you weren't.
here for example nazi spies captured in 1942 and executed in 1944
And that is
the ONLY
example of German Spies/Saboteurs caught and executed on US Soil. And again in direct refutation of your claim They were executed as spies/saboteurs not because of a simple "lack of papers" but because their own fellow German accomplices went to the US Authorities and turned them all in.
and why not Scott simply says who she is claim that she in the dead crewman (Cdr. Richard Owens) are the only survivors of the yacht
and why not
?
Scott simply says who she is claim that she in the dead crewman (Cdr. Richard Owens) are the only survivors of the yacht.
That question mark is important to someone trying to read your response, to keep from mentally tripping when trying to read your words.
Why Not?
BECAUSE HISTORY RECORDED THAT THERE WERE NO SURVIVORS!
And there was no alteration of history or the timeline in this film.
If Laurel reported who she was, and Owens then claimed to be the crewman then History would have reflected that there were two survivors.
It. Did. Not.
Now Are you done?
I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water! -
alexracer — 10 years ago(December 02, 2015 01:19 PM)
so t how would they gain (new) ID papers ?
without ID papers you can't even register a car, let alone build up a (legal) financial empire.
Owens would have another little problem , he would need to hop that for 20 years or so nobody finds the wreck of the helicopter -
CGSailor — 10 years ago(December 03, 2015 02:52 AM)
so t how would they gain (new) ID papers ?
without ID papers you can't even register a car, let alone build up a (legal) financial empire.
I personally don't know the exact steps to forge a fake identity.
But just because I don't know does not mean it cannot be done. It happens all the damned time. You are arguing a bullsh!t and demonstrably false point.
Owens would have another little problem , he would need to hop that for 20 years or so nobody finds the wreck of the helicopter
This film is from a Single timeline version of the universe, not alternative multidimensional timelines.
The wreckage wasn't found so it won't be found.
Irrelevant point.
Are you done NOW?
I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water! -
TVholic — 10 years ago(December 04, 2015 09:18 PM)
What are these "ID papers" you keep referring to? Do you know anyone who carries their birth certificate or passport around all the time? Social Security had barely started a few years before 1941 and there were initial problems registering everyone in the country, so a Social Security card isn't it. Lots of people never get driver's licenses because they don't drive. You know in 1941, there weren't computerized databases, so checking and cross-checking information was a very laborious process. It would have been fairly easy to assume somebody's identity. Not to mention photo ID basically didn't exist at the time. You think identity theft is difficult because you're judging from the 21st century.
Seriously, you don't know the first thing about what you're arguing.
As for the helo, who would know what it was if they found the bits and pieces of it anyway? It would have been just wreckage from some kind of vehicle. Forensic wreckage analysis wasn't common in the 1940s, especially in wartime. Do you think somebody would take a tremendous leap of faith and think, "Wow, this must be from the future"? At worst, they might think it's from some kind of Japanese minisub. -
alexracer — 10 years ago(December 06, 2015 06:39 AM)
I am talking about one of this, this one from 1940 with photo
http://www.danielabraham.net/images/tree/katz_toni_britishidcard.jpg
or even older ones , they did have photos even before 1940
http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/american/wwii_equipment/photos/haddock_id.jpg
a wrecked helicopter potentially with US NAVY markings and serial numbers might easy attract attention , unless of course Ownes made sure later to send a crew and quietly dispose of it -
TVholic — 10 years ago(December 06, 2015 09:25 AM)
You're really desperate, aren't you? Here's a little tidbit for you: the UK passed an act of Parliament to create those cards because they were at war, and even then, you could almost certainly find people in remote villages and rural areas who wouldn't have the ID. The US was not at war in 1941 and to this day has no national ID card, unless you count passports.
Why do you persist on pointing to military ID? Not every man in the US was in the military. Are you saying every civilian male would have been arrested and executed? Assuming Owen was the same age as Farentino, he would have been too old to register for the draft before the beginning of the war, and by the time they started drafting men his age, they were so short of manpower that every able-bodied man would be accepted. Draft cards didn't have photos, either. Or even got officially stamped. Anybody could steal one and fill it out. Driver's licenses and other civilian ID generally didn't have photos back then. And both of your "photo" IDs had exposed photos glued onto them. Do you have any idea how easy it would be to steal IDs then remove and replace the photos with their own? It's not like more recent IDs with photos laminated under plastic or current IDs with photos directly printed. Teenagers have been making fake IDs to get into bars since the end of Prohibition. It wouldn't be a surprise if Owen used one when he was in college.
Navy markings in 1941 were quite different from 1980 markings. Among other things, where's the red bar? If someone found them, they would chalk them off as poorly researched fake markings on a Japanese vehicle. Again, nobody is going to leap to the conclusion that the machine is from the future.
Like CGSailor, I'm done trying to talk sense into you. -
alexracer — 10 years ago(December 06, 2015 11:07 AM)
you forgot about the stamp part on the photos
and you really forget that Owens if he became this powerful businessman with political influence would need to make sure his papers and BACKGROUND STORY are alright because this activities attract attention of political foes and their private detectives that try to find something to discredit/blackmail him with , this is how things work
also the current NAVY marking was introduced in 1947 so if that wreck was found after 47 it would have standard Navy markings , you can never discount that somebody like fishers find it as it crashed near an island, not into some really deep abyss
http://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/naval-aviation-history/aircraft-markings.html -
dubyahsrobotminion — 10 years ago(December 06, 2015 03:24 PM)
Your research is half-baked on 'Markings'. The Star and Bar become standard in 1947. Not all markings. None of it matters because the Helo not only had non-1941 star and bar insignia, it also had USS Nimitz markings, CVW-8 markings and a bureau no. that would not be on record until the 60s if not 70s depending on when that Helo was made. Having said that the Star and Bar still has been around in multiple incarnations. Normal, Lo-vis, Hi-vis, centennial and many others.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business? -
Cairo-5 — 10 years ago(December 02, 2015 07:28 PM)
Something just occurred to me while reading your post.
The movie actually establishes that there were no known survivors of the civilian boat Chapman and the others were on.
In writing his history of the Pacific war Owens mentions the disappearance and presumption of death of Sen. Chapman at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. Later, after Chapman has been rescued and taken to the Nimitz, Lasky who has read that passage throws it back at Owens because of his belief that history can't be changed.
Owens had to be reporting the accepted historical conclusion that what happened to Chapman was unknown. He mysteriously disappeared.
BUT: There wouldn't have been any mystery or any presumptions at all if someone from the boat was known to have survived. That person would have certainly been questioned, especially since you just don't ignore the disappearance of a very important Senator.
So a known survivor would have told what happened. And it wouldn't have made any difference if he told the truth or lied. Either way there would be something in the historical record as to Chapman's fate. Something that Owens would have repeated in his manuscript.
It's easier to be an individual than a god.
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CGSailor — 10 years ago(December 03, 2015 02:59 AM)
Exactly.
Had an actual survivor came forward (Laurel) or even someone taking the identity of someone from the boat (As suggested Owens could have done) then the history of the film would have been recorded differently.
But history recorded that Senator Chapman's Yacht disappeared without a trace with all hands during the time of the attack and was presumed destroyed during the attack.
It would not have been "presumed destroyed" if a survivor came for and "reported it destroyed".
I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water! -
davidjanuzbrown — 9 years ago(November 07, 2016 09:35 PM)
it is important to note that because of the Attack on Pearl Harbor, everything is in utter kaos, so hiding in plain sight was easy ( unless you were Japanese of course). It was necessary for not only Owens to do so, but Laurel because if she was known to survive, the questions about the disappearance of such a well known Senator as Chapman would have happened. Laurel was ahead of her time and because of her knowledge of the System probably had little difficulty in securing false documents like a birth certificate and drivers license for herself and Owens. The key to Owens success was Laurel who really understood the way things workedwt. Especially when it came to Congress and Defense Contracts, For Laurel she had someone in Owens who respected her.
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SealedCargo — 6 years ago(September 25, 2019 11:19 AM)
he had Biff Tannan's Almanac
The Fearmakers Blog
https://thefearmakers.blogspot.com/
