Love the Kreese defenders
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benosheabutter — 11 years ago(September 14, 2014 07:57 AM)
Miyagi did something much worse - he preyed on teenage boys. he set up a Neverland before Jacko. Heck, Jacko was likely inspired by Miyagi's deviousness since Miyagi was there first. He made Daniel move in with him. he offered him hard liquor (Jacko served Jesus Juice aka wine which isn't as strong as booze that Miyagi was nudging Daniel to drink).
You cannot deny the creep factor in lines such as "My heart empty without you, Daniel-san" (friends and family don't talk like that, only lovers do) and "You are more important than college, more important than anything Mr Miyagi!" (only people in love exclaim that their love interest is more important than family members), moving in together, having no circle of friends, no girlfriends but only each other. Yep, that goes way beyond father-son and just friends. -
eadabfc — 11 years ago(September 14, 2014 08:26 AM)
Wow. Justwow.
Offering Daniel a sip of liquor, yes, that is something that happened in the movie about make-pretend people.
"Set up a Neverland before Jacko" - nope, sorry, that isn't something that happened in the movie about make-pretend people. While I'm sure there are plenty of Miyagi-Daniel sex scenes in people's Karate Kid fan fictions out there, I tend to stick to things that actually happened in the movieI dunno, I'm weird like that. I just spoke to the screenwriters on the phone, and your theories do not equal Karate Kid canon.
Don't get me wrong. Raping boys is probably worse than injuring someone because you know your sociopathic student will lose to them. But we're talking about the first four Karate Kid movies, movies which do not feature our dreams/fan fiction/crayon drawings involving Miyagi man-boy sex. But they did feature a karate instructor named Kreese who ordered an injury over fair competitionthat's actually a thing that happened! (Before Miyagi had sex with Daniel while a T-Rex fought a ninja in the background and Pee Wee Herman criedaaahhh, there we go again with our scenes that we're inventing that have no bearing on what actually happened on the big movie screen thingie where people play make-believe)
There are movies with subtext. These are not them. They're pretty straightforward stories, stories that feature pathetic human beings, whose names rhyme with Pleese and Gilver, who can't accept losing in competition, so they resort to behaving like children. And then they still lose. -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(September 14, 2014 09:15 AM)
These are also straight forward stories that feature pathetic human beings who leave their sons in care of seedy men (Daniel's mother), who cannot form any relationship with people their age (Miyagi who lives and socializes exclusively with a teenager), who continuously alienate friends and girlfriends (Daniel), who waste college money on business with no customers (Daniel),who do binge eat carbs (Daniel), who give teenagers booze and let them drive w/o drivers since they also drive w/o driver's (Miyagi), who convert Roman Catholics into Buddhists without explaining to Catholics that they are in a process of unapproved conversion (Miyagi).
The thing is, Miyagi and Daniel are not positive role models at all, but because movies pretend that they are, they are far more dangerous than characters like Kreese and Silver where movies all but put a red capital letter signs screaming "They are bad! Do not try at home, kids!" OTOH, Miyagi's philosophy is ridiculous and wrong yet presented as holy truth. For example:
"win lose no matta" This bull is dangerous because it teaches kids that they shouldn't have any ambition. That led directly to Daniel squandering his college money on "fulfilling Miyagi's dream" to open a fake bonsai tree shop even though there were no customers for that product. So money was wasted because the goal wasn't to win (as in earn profit) but only please elderly boyfriend for the sake of pleasing. Cause win (profit), lose (loss) no matta. he was happythanks to wasted college money he didn't work for!
"no bad student, only bad teacher" This bull refuses to acknowledge that students are individuals and not Borg so of course that their personality and different level of intelligence play a part in learning. It teaches kids that they should just dump all responsibility for their stupid actions on adults. Hey, I'm clean cause no bad student, only bad teacher, nevermind teacher had no clue WTF I was doing after hours. I'm clean. This leads to youth that makes bad decisions cause they can always blame adults, right?
Not to mention that in these 3 movies Daniel totally depended on Miyagi. he never became an independent person who can take care of himself without help. In fact, he couldn't do sh!t without Miyagi. he couldn't fight without his saving his ass at the last moment or nodding in approval before Daniel was to apply this or that karate move. he couldn't live by himself. he didn't go to college because he couldn't imagine living on his own so he came up with a ploy to use money for partnership with his live-in boyfriend. That's beyond negative. yet movies treat this utter loserdom as something positive. Look, they have each other, Daniel doesn't need higher education, becoming independent, friends his age, girlfriends, mother, etc. Disgusting. -
eadabfc — 11 years ago(September 14, 2014 10:26 PM)
I tell you what man (or ma'am), my football team won today so I'm in a pretty good mood. If you honestly think the screenwriters intention in the first film is to make you say to your kid that the blond psychopath boy and his angry adult teacher with no sense of shame or perspective on what really is important in life (hint, it's not winning at all costs) are the true role models, then go ahead good sir, let your kid believe that. Your kid might turn into the type that will break his girlfriend's radio like an angry infant instead of, you know, moving on with life like a well-adjusted human being would, but hey, who are we to judge, right? Restraining orders are for losers.
Also, I don't really count what happens in the sequels, as I think they're awful films in general, and I bet you even the screenwriters who simply wrote them to get paid might agree with me after all of these years. Is that fair? I don't know, I'm an adult and I get to do that. It's all fake! Just like there are only three real Star Wars films. Come to think of it, that Palpatine guy has the right attitude. Life = winning, and do whatever it takes to do that. Murder, schmurder! Unlike that Luke loser, who's all about "love" and "honor" and "friendship". Ugh, what a fairy. Kreese ought to show him a thing or two. Kreese would break Leia's legs after she held them up for a second, and he would be RIGHT. -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(September 15, 2014 04:06 AM)
Again, you dismiss how crappy role models Daniel and Miyagi were. Miyagi is clearly a sociopath since he couldn't strike friendship with adults and had a drinking problem. he also showed total disregard for sensible law (such as that minors shouldn't be given alcohol, that minors w/o driver's license shouldn't be allowed to drive and that adults w/o license shouldn't drive either). Breaking a radio is breaking a radio. Anger channeled at inanimate object, not a person. OTOH, minor driving w/o license = possible car crash. Adult driving w/o license = possible car crash.Minor given booze = possible addiction. Those are much bigger transgressions than breaking rich girl's radio which she could replace.
Daniel and especially Miyagi were awful. Inability to socialize with people his age but holding a teenager in mental grip until teenager became totally dependent on him was not normal. On top of being creepy as hell. Which is why your Luke analogy doesn't work. Luke didn't depend on Obi Wan, he went on his own after losing his mentor. Daniel needed Miyagi to hold his d!ck while taking a piss, he couldn't do anything by himself. That's 100% wrong.
Also, there's absolutely no hint in KK that CK would beat up girls. Johnny trashed the radio, not Ali. In fact, it was Daniel who gave her verbal trashing for no reason but that he was insecure moron. So Johnny neither trashed her verbally nor physically. Also, when he fought with Daniel, his buddies were holding Ali so she didn't find herself between fighters - very bad place to be. That's protection. Finally, CK mottos specified that "a MAN confronts you HE is the enemy", words MAN and HE don't leave any doubt about gender (male) and age (adult). No ambiguity, it's 100% outlined who enemy is. Not women, not kids. Adult males. There. -
fourpointstars — 11 years ago(September 15, 2014 05:51 AM)
The sequels, especially 3, are entertaining for how bad they are. Silver is the only thing that keeps 3 watchable.
LaRusso finds out how difficult Ali can be in the end. She was acting like a child in regards to Johnny. -
eadabfc — 11 years ago(September 15, 2014 10:07 PM)
"Miyagi is clearly a sociopath since he couldn't strike friendship with adults and had a drinking problem."
Watch the scene again in KK when Miyagi and Daniel visit the Cobra Kai school and set up the tournament challenge. If you think Miyagi is the ahole in that scene, then I truly don't know what to tell you.
I love the fixation on a sip of alcohol (gasp!) and letting a 15 year-old drive, but 5 dudes beating one dude to a pulp, even when he couldn't stand? Where's the outrage?
"Pouring water on dude" (does not equal sign) "5 dudes beating one dude even when he can't stand, 30 seconds from coma had Miyagi not arrived".
@zerosumgame
"The sequels, especially 3, are entertaining for how bad they are."
Zerosum, I'll agree with you on that! -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(September 16, 2014 04:28 AM)
But Miyagi is an a$$hole in that scene. he crashed the class. Everyone's agitated when you interrupt their work. He could have waited for class to be over and talk to Kreese in private (guaranteed better mood then when you interrupt him) or in front of everyone after they are done with the training.
Also, considering that he's supposed to be wise and sh!t, if I were a wise Asian and saw that instructor was a Vietnam Vet (there's a photo!), I'd conclude that either
a) I'm not the best person to resolve this, just in case poor man has some unresolved trauma from that war, and will send more neutral, definitely more humanizing negotiator such as Daniel's mom (hey, instructor had a mom too, everyone is nice to moms!)
b) I should turn around, leave, pick up my Medal of Honor, come back to the dojo after classes, take the man for a bear and talk this out war hero to war hero, give the man recognition for his bravery that he didn't get when he came back to USA (they spit on and threw sh!t at Nam vets).
That said, douche Miyagi didn't do either because he's a passive-aggressive pr!ck who wanted to fight via a proxy. So instead of actually getting CK to stop acknowledging Daniel's existence right now, he devised to lure them into tourney where he could watch American kids getting beaten up by his proxy Daniel. In short, for all "no like fight" he wanted fight but like a passive-aggressive b!tch that he is, he didn't want anyone to see that he wanted it.
Textbook scociopath. -
eadabfc — 11 years ago(September 16, 2014 06:11 AM)
Given that you didn't bother responding to the 5 on 1 fight, I'll assume you'll concede that point, because no human being could seriously defend the idea of a dude responding to another dude pouring water on him by chasing him down with four other friends and beating him to a pulp, even when he couldn't stand. That'd beyou know, sociopathic.
As much as I love the idea of Miyagi & Kreese going out for a beer "war hero to war hero", I don't know if Kreese would be up for that. But Miyagi's the sociopath, right? Not the instructor who orders his student to BREAK THE OTHER KID'S LEG RATHER THAN WIN OR LOSE ON HIS OWN IN A COMPETITION. Nope, the other guy is the sociopath.
To recap: adult man who orders young student to injure rather than engage in competition (that they willingly entered!)role model. Adult man who encourages his student to compete honorably, win or losesociopath.
And @ruijcmyou're right. Kreese's villainy is cardboard in its extremity. But there's always people willing to defend teachers who order students to sweep the leg rather than risk losing. Forget it, ruijcmit's the IMdB boards. -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(September 16, 2014 11:37 AM)
Given that you didn't bother responding to the 5 on 1 fight
What, the one that Kreese agreed was not fair by proposing 1 on 1 fight? What's the problem? He acknowledged that 1 on 5 was not fair and immediately offered a fair solution.
I don't know if Kreese would be up for that.
would you turn down a free beer? More likely than not, he wouldn't either. especially if WW2 hero buys it as an appreciation for his Vietnam service. Any way you slice it, better chance of solving the dispute than interrupting the class.
But Miyagi's the sociopath
he interrupted the class, which is like putting out fire with gasoline, instead of talking to the guy when he was relaxed (which would be after the class). Not that he didn't know the difference. So total sociopath since he was clearly asking for tense situation instead of a calming one.
BREAK THE OTHER KID'S LEG
You are mixing Karate Kid remake where instructor ordered breaking of the leg, and original KK where instructor ordered "out of commission". The latter doesn't mean leg-breaking.
To recap: adult man who orders young student to injure rather than engage in competition (that they willingly entered!)role model. Adult man who encourages his student to compete honorably, win or losesociopath.
Nope, I never said either is a role model, just that movie all but put a big sign in red capital letters that Kreese isn't one, while totally glossing over Miyagi's sociopathic tendencies. neither is a role model for different reasons but only one is propagated as the ultimate role model and that's wrong. hell, they couldn't even come up with a story where Daniel is a socially successful person while in Miyagi's care. he became a total joke (friendless, girlfriendless, no college, still living in a ghetto, blown money on unprofitable business, lives with an old creep, abandoned by his mother, gained tons of flab thanks to Mac&Cheese diet, still so stupid he needs Miyagi to save his a$$ and hold his d!ck when taking a leak, etc). -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(March 08, 2015 07:30 AM)
Yes he did. I already explained. If you position yourself in front of the class, that's asking for attention while class is in progress. He could have sit on the designated bench for spectators which would be OK. But no. Also, he knew about Kreese more than Kreese knew about him, so it was his responsibility to adjust his approach in order to get the most favorable outcome. But signing up Daniel for tournament was not the most favorable outcome. That would be putting the end to CK/Daniel feud. And that would require that Daniel admits that he contributed to escalation by pulling a prank. So both sides would have to stop provoking each other. Daniel was not innocent. But Miyagi never cared to probe Daniel more. he took Daniel's lies that Daniel was 100% blameless as a gospel and he never thought that his stupid "no bad student only bad teacher" philosophy was wrong. That's not a wise man let alone peaceful one.
So do you defend Kreese ordering Bobby to take Daniel out with an illegal kick to the leg?
I have problem with this because it was totally out of character for Kreese. 100% out of character. He could've had Kai vs Kai finale and he sacrificed that because? Especially since the student was Bobby whom he obviously was grooming for the next champion. So if there was some particular bias in favor of Johnny we didn't see it up until that point. Also, it was an attempt to suddenly take any responsibility for Kai previous actions from Kai and blame it on their trainer. Very lazy writing.
I couldn't care less about Daniel. Bobby's attack wasn't indefensible so why didn't he defend himself?
Or ordering Johnny to keep hitting the injured leg? You don't have a problem with that?
I've no problem with that because leg sweep, as many people who know martial arts explained, is a legal move. As is exploring opponent's injury/weakness. -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(March 08, 2015 02:19 PM)
OK, scene by scene:
Miyagi: "No such thing bad student, only bad teacher.Teacher say, student do."
This is total bullsh!t. Nobody told Kai how to deal with Daniel. Yet Miyagi decided that they had ZERO responsibility and that their trainer, who was oblivious of what was going on, was 100% responsible. That's dealing in absolutes and you know who else only deals in absolutes? Sith.
So having made up his mind that teacher, who had no idea how his students spent after hours, was 100% to blame for Daniel's situation , Miyagi set off to the dojo. First, he scanned the trophy wall and saw war picture. Now, any wise man would think "Oh, sh!t. This guy's a Vietnam vet. There's a good chance that he may be agitated to see an Asian man. So best course of action would be that I leave and send boy's hot, single mom instead." Or "Fortunately, I'm an American patriot from WW2. So bets course of action would be to bond with this brave soldier over our American pride and warriorship. Since American public gives these poor Nam vets tough time, he'll appreciate that WW2 vet appreciates his service."
Alas, no. Miyagi didn't pick any of these lion-taming tactics. Instead, he took the most annoying approach which was "stop all activity and gimme attention!" positioning himself in front of the class, while class was in progress, hoping that his presence would serve as distraction. Which it did. The rest went like this:
Kreese:"What is the problem, Mr. Lawrence?"
Lawrence is distracted just as Miyagi hoped. He briefs Kreese on the visitors. As you can imagine, briefing was Johnny's version of events, not necessarily how they unfolded.
Kreese: "Class, we have visitors. Fall in behind me."
Since Miyagi was wh0ring for attention so much, ignoring him would be rude.
Kreese: "I hear you jumped some of my students last night."
This is very well worded. He didn't make accusation "You jumped my students!" while "I hear" means "his is the version of last night events that I got". This serves as a nudge to Miyagi to expand on facts if needed (since Daniel's black eye points out at more than what Johnny's version contained).
Miyagi: "Afraid the facts mixed up."
Bingo. Just like Kreese thought. There's more.
Kreese: "Are you calling Mr Lawrence a liar?"
In translation: "Mr Lawrence, you are so busted." Again, clever way to put a bit of fear in his dishonest student. You can see that Johnny's standing all stiff during this part of Miyagi/Kreese convo.
Miyagi: "No call no one nothing."
Riiiight.
Kreese: "What are you here for, old man?"
yeah, Kreese is now getting enough of this sh!t. Miyagi is obviously here to call him something but backtracked. So spill it out and don't waste time.
Miyagi: "Come ask leave boy alone."
Kreese:" What, the boy can't take care of his own problems?"
Ok, so this is tough one for Kreese. He could throw CK under the bus by going "hey, I don't know what the f^^k is going on, here are Kai who are responsible" or he could have their backs and take responsibility onto himself even though he wasn't responsible. Especially since Miyagi was clearly accusing him ("come ask (that you) leave the boy alone"). He picked an option 2. This is where Johnny's stance starts to relax.
Miyagi: "One-to-one problem yes. Five-to-one problem, too much ask anyone."
Kreese: "Is that what's bothering you, the odds? Well, we can fix that."
he acknowledges that 5-to-1 isn't fair without saying it isn't fair. But he does acknowledge it. Just because his way is rough around the edges it doesn't mean he has no sense of fair play.
Kreese: "Feel like matching, Mr. Lawrence?"
Johnny: "Yes, Sensei!"
Ha,mha, this is a good one. He scares the visitors a bit. They came to his dojo to accuse him of something he was clueless about, old guy beat up his students and is now interrupting his class. They need to cook before he lets them off the hook.
Miyagi: "No more fighting, please"
It's a bluff, you dumbass.
Kreese: "This is a karate dojo, not a knitting class. You don't come into my dojo, drop a challenge and leave, old man. Now get your boy on the mat,or you and I will have a serious problem."
This is a 100% bluff. Miyagi beat up 5 blackbelts like nobody's business. It isn't in Kreese's interest to have him repeat the feat in front of the whole class. So anyone who actually thinks that he wanted the fight is really stupid. he's showing Miyagi that he can't f^^k around with him and his students like that, by using Miyagi's words to his advantage. Miyagi said 5 on 1 was too much, while 1 on 1 was fair, so Kreese was, like, "OK, lets do 1 on 1. You said it!"
Miyagi: "Too much advantage, your dojo."
Kreese: "Name a place."
Again, Kreese agrees right away. Which means that he was never serious about the fight. And dojo indeed would be too much advantage. he isn't void of fair play (hence why his about face in the tournament makes zero sense).
Miyagi: "Tournament."
Kreese:"You've got real nerve, old man. real nerve. But I think we can accommodate you. Can't we -
benosheabutter — 11 years ago(March 08, 2015 05:20 PM)
Lmao the guy who writes a fricken book to defend a fictional character accuses someone else of having their panties in a twist? Hilarious.
LOL, freakin book? Few comments to cut and paste quotes. Hardly a book. But hey, who am I to say there aren't books that are less than a page exactly.
You take criticisms of Reese personally, which is just pathetic.
Says a guy who takes personally defense of a fictional character whom he doesn't like. And attack on a character whom he likes. I have much better arguments than you and that's that. You can't reply with a better argument so you try typical Internet evasion tactic. Doesn't work buddy.
YOU thought he was thinking and pass it off as a fact.
Like when you try to pass what you think I'm thinking as a fact?
I love you didn't acknowledge his actions in the second movie because you know it proves you wrong.
Yep, this is a prime example of passing what you think as a fact. I'll come to second movie don't you worry. Get ready for another "book". I just need to find quotes.
Is it so hard to admit Kreese was in the wrong too?
No, which is why I explained that his decision to put Daniel out of commission was wrong. In a previous reply to your post that already asked this. But I stand by my opinion that he did nothing wrong during the dojo exchange.
I've never said Miyagi didn't do anything wrong.
Good, now I want receipts. Lets hear what he did wrong. I have a whole list but lets hear it from you.
Just that you defending Kreese for everything is ridiculous.
Nope, it's ridiculous to defend character who's defended 1000 times over. But defending an underdog is always OK. And Kreese is KK's underdog because the movies want to make him look wrong even when he's right, while they want Miyagi to look right even when he's wrong. It just shows that I can think with my own head since I'm able to see when such biases happen and call them out.