Is Jane's birching based on historical fact?
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raemae1013 — 18 years ago(July 08, 2007 06:57 PM)
Ummmm did you know that Guilford's mother was also named Jane, it is just as possible that it was for her. Historians that even believe it to be carved by Guilford also speculate that it was done for either two reasons. 1. He was for some odd reason pining forhis wife, or 2. He was longing for the mother he had grown attachted to over a span of sixteen/seventeen years. Although, if it had been done for Jane isn't it possible they had grown as friends over the months and merely liked to chat. It isn't fair to say that the word Jane was in the wall, so Guilford and Jane were in love, although it is something people would like to believe. And take in to evidence the fact that Guilford asked to see Jane soon to their execution date and Jane refused.
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little_miss_sunnydale — 18 years ago(July 09, 2007 01:14 AM)
In my last post I did state the possibility that if Guildford did carve the name into the wall it was probably in honour of his mother, Jane, who he was closer to rather than his distant wife. It seems more logical that it was for her.
The film tries to indicate that Jane and Guildford were in love but the sad reality is that by looking at the evidence of this period their relationship appears distant. The meeting that Guildford requested is not necessarily a sign of affection especially considering Jane refused to see him and he may have just wished to see her to comfort himself or properly say goodbye to his wife (it was customary to say goodbye to family relatives before execution; Jane wrote her farewells to her father and her sister in order to settle affairs). So it appears more customary rather than romantic. Also the Victorian historian Agnes Strickland in her work on Jane mentions that Guildford wished to see his wife to give her a one last kiss. Unfortunately Strickland uses no evidence to back this up, rather she made up the idea that Guildford wished to see his wife for romantic reasons (this is just one of many things Strickland creates in order to romanticise Janes life). Some recent historians have even rejected the idea that Guildford even wanted to see Jane (like Plowden). The gloomy reality was that Jane died young and therefore missed out on many opportunities. So her life is often romanticised, not only in order to place even more emphasis on her pathetic end but also to compensate for the fact that she died without fulfilling her life. Its comforting and appealing but ultimately unrealistic.
We are born princes and the civilizing process makes us frogs - Syrus -
ami_fee68 — 18 years ago(July 09, 2007 10:30 AM)
I didn't know that about the mother, and it's a good point. I am by no means demanding anyone's acceptance that they were in love. I just prefer - though facts are quite fascinating - my own delusions, when there is simply nothing more to be done for someone's plight. By the way, when was the last time you carved the initials into a wall, tree or bathroom stall of someone you "just liked to chat with"???????
"It was customary to say goodbye to family relatives before execution"
And I would rather live with the warm thoughts that people back then had real feelings than that they said goodbye to their relatives before execution, for no other reason than that it was the proper thing to do. I'm sure that still happens even today, but as I have said many times on the Pride & Prejudice board: Real life is not Masterpiece Theatre. People were not on their best behavior 24/7, dressed like the queen between balls, or physically able to be unemotional just because emotion was a societal faux pas.
Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue! -
little_miss_sunnydale — 18 years ago(July 09, 2007 11:45 AM)
didn't know that about the mother, and it's a good point. I am by no means demanding anyone's acceptance that they were in love. I just prefer - though facts are quite fascinating - my own delusions, when there is simply nothing more to be done for someone's plight. By the way, when was the last time you carved the initials into a wall, tree or bathroom stall of someone you "just liked to chat with"???????
I would argue that it makes more sense that if Guildford did carve the sketch on the wall it was done out of affection for one who had a great impact upon his life and of whom he appears to have been closest to; his mother. It is of course more romantic to imagine he was pining for his wife, but I always had the stronger belief that he was pining more for his mother than for his distant wife. It is certainly not a romantic image but still a rather pitiful one.
And I would rather live with the warm thoughts that people back then had real feelings than that they said goodbye to their relatives before execution, for no other reason than that it was the proper thing to do.
I didn't argue that people in the sixteenth century were devoid of feelings. Instead if Guildford did actually ask for such a meeting, I don't think this is an indication of their love, but was a mixture of properly saying goodbye to a family member and in addition, the meeting may have been requested by Guildford in order to find some comfort for himself rather than with his wife. Understandably he was nervous about his execution (and he was said to have wept while walking to the scaffold). Jane's resolve was firmer and I imagine it would have been somewhat comforting for him to have seen someone, regardless of whom, in a similar position to him that had a strong resolve. He may have even wished to seek religious comfort with her. However Jane appears to have been more collected than him at that point and she could derive comfort and courage from other means aside from him. I don't think this lack of romance is dull; it makes Jane and Guildford appear more human and highlights Jane's resolve. I also think the lack of romance makes things more pathetic and makes the actual events even more tragic. Lol; perhaps Im a gloomy person, but it would be interested to see another drama on Jane Greys life which takes a different viewpoint from this one and depicts a more realistic relationship between Guildford and Jane. It may be a sad drama but Jane's life wasn't exactly frivolous.
We are born princes and the civilizing process makes us frogs - Syrus -
Helenlaurence — 10 years ago(November 29, 2015 04:13 AM)
The mother thing doesn't ring true to me somehow. Would he have even called his mother Jane?
I'm not saying he did scratch that in the wall- it could have been someone else entirely or a different Jane.
The whole thing is so sad I understand why people want to romanticise it, but it's doubtful they had a romantic relationship as depicted in the film. -
silver_randomocity — 18 years ago(March 31, 2008 05:20 AM)
"Where do you have that information from? In the tower of London where they were taken for execution, there's a turret where Guildford was held. Preserved in two places is Jane's name, which he scratched into the wall. Why would he do that if he wasn't in love with her?"
Umm, yeah, Guilford's mother was named Jane. Some historians think that
if
the carving was done by Guilford, it was done as him pining for the mother who spoilt him rotten (probably in hope of her finding a way for him to leave the tower and the mess his father got into). -
Leia5899 — 18 years ago(June 26, 2007 10:21 AM)
"I think that the main reason that she did not wish to marry Guildford was his selfish, childish behaviour. Apparently he had been spoilt excessively by his mother. Although the movie suggests that they eventually feel in love, this was never the case."
From what I have read, it was because she didn't trust the Dudley family, and rightfully so. Their actions also led to her beheading. -
IsoldeJaneHolland — 18 years ago(September 10, 2007 03:10 PM)
Jane's mother Frances Grey was both a loathsome and ridiculous woman
who two weeks afte she became a widow married her stable groom! Which
makes her trying to compel her daughter to accept a strategic marriage
even more contemptible. At least in this film she looks like she feels
a bit guilt-stricken at the end, after Jane's death.
There is a brand new (pub 2007) book about the whole Lady Jane debacle
containing a lot about her parents, and written by a well known Tudor
Historian Alison Weir : Innocent Traitor. It's historical fiction. -
paige1357 — 17 years ago(November 16, 2008 07:03 PM)
Firstly, many biographies on Jane are not entirely accurate (Chapman and Plowden's books use unusual sources that need to be questioned and they both are extremely biased and not indepth).
Which biographies can be trusted? -
little_miss_sunnydale — 17 years ago(November 17, 2008 03:26 AM)
Which biographies can be trusted?
Right now, there isnt much out there. However it seems that there will be some good works coming out sometime in the future. Eric Ives has written a biography on her life, which I think is out next year (definitely worth looking out for). Plus J. Stephan Edwards, who specialises in the life of Jane Grey, has also written a biography although there is yet a date for its release.
Incidentally Edwards has his own website and has listed numerous books relating to Jane. He has evaluated the usefulness and strength of each work:
http://www.somegreymatter.com/janegreybiblio.htm
He is also willing to answer questions, and his email address is provided on the website.
Noli me tangere; for Caesar's I am -
paige1357 — 15 years ago(May 07, 2010 04:02 PM)
Little_miss_sunnydale, I would like to buy Eric Ives's book on Jane, but I do not have much money at the time. I always love following your posts, and as you seem to have an unbiased view and know everything about this period, I would be curious in hearing your opinions on it before I buy it.
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marktayloruk — 17 years ago(December 04, 2008 07:57 AM)
I know Jane complained of being mistreated by her parents well before she married.It seemed she couldn't do anything right as far as they were concerned.In the film,her father comes across slightly better han her mother-among the nastiest screen bitches I've ever seen.Mary should have pardoned Jane in return or her publicly acknowledghing her as Queen-which she rightfully was-and executed both her parents.
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LadyKosha — 15 years ago(August 24, 2010 10:02 AM)
Afterall, we only have written accounts to go by.
You need an awful lot of documentation to match to get close to any facts about history.
What isn't fact is that Lady Jane Grey was a 16 year old kid when she was executed, and it was done for political and sectarian reasons.
Whether or not she wanted to take the throne, or wanted to spread Protestantism, or was a spoiled kid who didn't get on with her mother, we will never know. But she
was
a child, and in those days people had very little regard for the lives of kids.
"You stop me again whilst I'm walkin', I'll cut your f#kkin' jacobs off!!" -
louiseculmer — 10 years ago(July 17, 2015 06:47 PM)
It very likely is true. Although forced marriage was officially frowned on by the church, ambitious parents might try and push their children into an unwanted match. and jane's parents seem to have been very ambitious.
Sometimes children defied their parents though. For example, in the 15th century, the Pastons daughter Margery defied her parents wish for a good martiage for her, and although beaten by her furious mother to try and make her comply, insisted on marrying the family bailiff, richard Calle, which was considered a poor marriage (a bailiff was a servant, albeit a superior one). Since she had become bethrothed to him though, the church upheld her right to marry him (bethrothel was regarded as virtually as legally binding as marriage). With the church supporting Margery, her parents could do nothing about it.