Democrats are good and Republicans bad in this
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Born on the Fourth of July
sonofbeach-sheet — 13 years ago(October 20, 2012 09:34 PM)
Good ole Oliver Stone! At the Republican convention, the folks are a bunch of brainwashed, uniformed rednecks and uncaring businesspeople and at the Democratic convention for Carter, they're all loving, caring, and compassionate.
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ryan-anderson — 13 years ago(November 16, 2012 12:03 AM)
Good ole Oliver Stone! At the Republican convention, the folks are a bunch of brainwashed, uniformed rednecks and uncaring businesspeople and at the Democratic convention for Carter, they're all loving, caring, and compassionate.
Yeah, I kind of took note of that too. When Kovic is watching the mess outside the 1968 Democratic convention [in the hospital], it isnt even identified as such (instead called the 1968 Presidential election
).
He tried to make the 1972 GOP convention look worse by depicting large scale riots.which didnt happen..and by showing Kovic getting dragged out and roughed up, which didnt happen either (according to his own book).
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Ainull_seepage — 13 years ago(January 15, 2013 06:57 PM)
What I took form it was the progression of mindset among government, and populace. Between Johnson (a Democrat) to Carter. Vietnam hit the tipping point in the middle, and by the time the peanut farmer came around the marketable policy was set in stone.
I didn't see it as a left vs. right, but more as a what was 'acceptable'.
Ronnie was not protesting for liberal vs. conservative policies but human rights.
I took it as 'the times they are a changin' and who was in office didn't even cross my mind.
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filmscholar35 — 12 years ago(June 12, 2013 04:38 PM)
There are no "large scale riots" at the Republican convention in the film. Stop exaggerating.
The reality is, that at the 1968 Republican convention, Kovic and some others with 'Vets for Peace' showed up protesting. They managed to get into the convention and began to make a bit of a ruckus, which attracted the press. When they began to talk to the press, security showed up and asked them to leave. They refused, and were thrown out. Upon a loud ejection scene, some police had decided to arrest Kovic and the others. Other protesters intervened, and got Kovic and company clear of the police. After they were outside the barricades, however, Kovic had decided that they would return to the convention and attempt to "storm it". When they returned, however, they were simply denied access, and were turned away. They protested a while in the neighboring area, and then went home.
In the film, I have no doubt that the drama/action is "played up" a bit by Stone, for climactic dramatic effect. For instance, I doubt that Kovic was knocked from his chair to the ground by cops only to have other veterans come charging in and literally carry him out, like out of the war. But, they needed a climactic scene for the film that would be dramatic and interesting, rather than the dull way that it likely really occurred (that they were simply thrown out, some vets talked cops out of arresting Kovic by taking him out of there, and then they were denied re-entry to the convention; that wouldn't have made for a very exciting climax). A few people are shown scuffling with cops near the end, in the background and such, but it is hardly "large-scale rioting", LOL. And the reason the scene ends so abruptly is because it looks like Kovic is heading back into the convention for full-scale assault, and then ends there. In reality, of course, he simply never got back in, and later went home pissed off.
It IS, however, very fitting that they use ACTUAL footage of Nixon from the convention, talking about how we should be showing the veterans the respect that they deserve and that they've earned, while these vets were being thrown out for presenting a less than jingoistic point of view. This STILL happens today, armchair warriors and fans of Fox News who have never seen a war will rush to condemn actual combat veterans and brand them "traitors" for saying that there is more to it than flag-waving nonsense.
And the reality IS that, after being ejected from the Republican convention in 1968, Kovic was ASKED to be a guest and speak at the 1976 Democrat convention. That is not taking sides on Stone's part, that is what really happened.
It can be taken into account however, that there was a big difference in the times between 1968 and 1976. By 1976, Vietnam was well over with. Also, Kovic was an unknown nobody in 1968. And by 1976, he was a best-selling author and well-known activist. The Dems would likely have kicked him out in the 1960s, too. -
ryan-anderson — 12 years ago(January 16, 2014 10:07 AM)
There are no "large scale riots" at the Republican convention in the film. Stop exaggerating.
What else would you call what was depicted in the film? Small scale riots? It was certainly some kind of riot, and I'm old enough to remember the convention and know that's baloney (and I'm not the only one, more on that in a moment).
The reality is, that at the 1968 Republican convention, Kovic and some others with 'Vets for Peace' showed up protesting. They managed to get into the convention and began to make a bit of a ruckus, which attracted the press. When they began to talk to the press, security showed up and asked them to leave. They refused, and were thrown out. Upon a loud ejection scene, some police had decided to arrest Kovic and the others. Other protesters intervened, and got Kovic and company clear of the police. After they were outside the barricades, however, Kovic had decided that they would return to the convention and attempt to "storm it". When they returned, however, they were simply denied access, and were turned away. They protested a while in the neighboring area, and then went home.
First off: wrong year (it was 1972).and secondly
Kovic's own book
doesn't back your statement (or the film). The way Kovic describes it in his book: he got in via a TV Producer he knew that had a press pass. (That producer was actually Bob Dornan.) For the most part he describes being ignored until him and his buddies made so much noise that Roger Mudd [of CBS] came and interviewed him. (Something Mudd does not recall; he does recall the disturbance, just not talking to Kovic.) Finally after doing their best to disrupt Nixons speech, the Secret Service wheeled them out. (Kovic claims he was spit on by a Nixon supporter during this.) Kovic himself says he did not put up a fight (following the advice of his buddy [Bobby] who was with him). He describes being wheeled out a side entrance where the doors were chained and padlocked behind them to prevent the press from following them for interviews. And that was it. Nothing about being dragged out and beaten or any attempt at being arrested. Kovic did claim at the beginning of the chapter he had friends being clubbed and gassed outside the convention.
(Born on the Fourth p.174-181)
Furthermore, in his book: 'Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail '72' (pp.390-392) Hunter S. Thompson recalls the Miami convention [and Kovic's presence], and he also did not note the violence portrayed in this film. In fact, overall it was peaceful according to him. (And it's important to note that Thompson was neither a fan of Nixon [and that is being polite] or the Vietnam War.)
So before you accuse anyone else of exaggerating, maybe you ought to get your own facts straight.
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skep8 — 11 years ago(June 11, 2014 04:36 PM)
Nixon was elected president based on his promise to "get us out" of Nam, but he did not do that until much later (during his second term, after countless more war deaths), and even then only because he could no longer avoid his broken promise and was forced to end the war Nixon himself probably had more psychological quirks that all of our other presidents put together, and was a totally amoral charlatan. As Oscar Levant said, "Nixon will double-cross that bridge when he comes to it". But you keep right on defending him, because he was one of your beloved Republicans.
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dellascott2004 — 10 years ago(May 10, 2015 02:14 PM)
Yeah, I had a problem with this, too. I wasn't old enough to vote or go to political conventions in 1972, but it didn't ring true to me that they would treat a veteran, even one with whom they disagreed, with rudeness or disrespect, unless he posed some clear danger or something.
One thing you have to remember about the late 60s and early 70s, though, is that it was an era of terrorism, both here, with people like the Weather Underground, and abroad with people like the Red Army faction. Many political and ideological groups had been infiltrated or even hijacked by violent radicals. I don't know if Veterans Against the War was one of these, but it wouldn't surprise me. Wasn't this the medal-throwing group John Kerry was involved with?
My point is they may have had some justification for being afraid or suspicious. After all, the Democratic convention had been turned into a horrorshow by protesters just 4 years earlier.
"I didn't betray youI simply put a stop to you." -
Balberith — 10 years ago(January 30, 2016 04:40 PM)
Look, when Kennedy came into office on January 20, 1961 there were some 900 US military advisors in South Vietnam, by the time he was killed there were over 16,000. Enough said there. Even Tom Brokaw said that Nixon was more or less handed a "house on fire" by Johnson in 1969. He did the best he could with what he had inherited and got us out regardless in March of 1973.
"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one" -
drjeff21 — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 06:15 AM)
Yes,and the "battle" outside the Republican convention where Kovic is thrown out of his wheelchair never happened. Keep in mind that Kovic was considering running for congress (as a democrat of course) when this movie was released.