Book vs Movie
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racy1285 — 9 years ago(January 25, 2017 04:20 PM)
I already explained with the quote earlier but since you didnt bother to read it or it went right over your head.
Here it is pay attention. In the ending the Little Mermaid ends up killing herself and turns into sea fart because the Prince married someone else. Its quite clear Hans Christian Anderson is telling women dont follow your dreams, dont have sex, and do what your told or the same will happen to you.
I have no clue what kiliing yourself and turning into sea fart is religious to you. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 25, 2017 05:17 PM)
I read your quote and it simply failed to explain why the ending is supposedly sexist.
Your explanation also shows how you failed to understand the story and its ending. In no way does Andersen say that about women. Did you miss the part about gaining a soul and going to heaven? Eternal salvation is a major theme. It's not a story about the oppression of women, but about unrequited love (when is there even sex?) and a desire to belong, which Andersen himself experienced many times. She also does not "kill herself". Maybe you should go back to school and learn how to read. -
racy1285 — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 12:54 PM)
. I read your quote and it simply failed to explain why the ending is supposedly sexist
Thats your fault not mine. I made it simple enough.
Your explanation also shows how you failed to understand the story and its ending. In no way does Andersen say that about women.
Haha you obviously have no clue what your talking about. Fyi Anderson has a history of it. Most of his stories with female protagonist has a very sexist slant to it.
Did you miss the part about gaining a soul and going to heaven?
Nope i saw that and it to me sounded like a cheap cop out. Anderson was trying to use it as his happy ending which I call bs on. I agree with the the other poster. The Mermaid should have gone to hell for taking her life over a guy. Such a horrible message to send to young girls.
Eternal salvation is a major theme.
Lol no it isnt. Maybe only to you.
It's not a story about the oppression of women,
Eh wrong. It's a cautionary tale for women who want to be independent thinkers and pursue what they want. In the case of the story pursuing love.
(when is there even sex?)
lol are you kidding me? Sex is part of the whole story. The idea of the Mermaid wishing for the legs just becuase she wants a man is filled with sexual symbolism. Her getting legs and becoming human symbolize A girl growing into a adulthood. And of course her relationship with the prince clearly implies her need to do what couples do "Have sex".
You obviously think these fairy tales are meant to be g rated or something. But the european fairy tales like Mermaid are filled with sexual symoblism. Even little red riding hood has it.
and a desire to belong, which Andersen himself experienced many times.]
why because he was gay? Oh please Anderson hated himself being gay which is why he like to punish his protagonist and teach them a lesson. Mainly woman because he likely identified with them.
She also does not "kill herself".
Yeah she does. She threw herself from the ship and dissolved. Last time I checked willingly drowning yourself is suicide. Unless you can prove the butler did it.
Maybe you should go back to school and learn how to read.
Eh no thanks. I dont want to join you in kindergarten child. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 02:20 PM)
Thats your fault not mine. I made it simple enough.
No, it's your fault, because nothing in the story says that women should do as they're told or they'll wind up dead. You definitely needed to elaborate on that. And you failed.
Haha you obviously have no clue what your talking about. Fyi Anderson has a history of it. Most of his stories with female protagonist has a very sexist slant to it.
Even if his stories contain sexism, that in no way means that that's the message of this story.
Nope i saw that and it to me sounded like a cheap cop out. Anderson was trying to use it as his happy ending which I call bs on.
It has nothing to do with a happy ending, it was mentioned several times before in the story.
Lol no it isnt. Maybe only to you.
To Andersen, who literally said it, and every expert out there.
Eh wrong. It's a cautionary tale for women who want to be independent thinkers and pursue what they want. In the case of the story pursuing love.
If you actually read the story, you'd know that she's actually pursuing a soul. Compare it to The Red Shoes in which Karen is condemned multiple times for her frivolous behavior and ultimately punished by her feet getting chopped off. Only later is she rewarded after she redeems herself in the eyes of god. There's no such punishment for the little mermaid. In fact, her death comes AFTER she chooses the prince's life and happiness over her own. Andersen even said that he didn't want her eternal salvation to rely on the actions or love of someone else, but on the little mermaid herself.
lol are you kidding me? Sex is part of the whole story.
The mermaid was pursuing the prince to marry him, as that was the way to gain a soul. Perhaps she also wanted to have sex, but the prince clearly did not want to have sex with her. That's why he would let her sleep on a cushion outside his door, dressed her like a page boy and could only love her like a child. It's unrequited love, there is no sex. So Andersen can't be warning against it.
Andersen's stories are not comparable to stories like Little Red Riding Hood. He made them up himself for the most part, including this one. Religion, loneliness and acceptance are much more important themes than sexuality.
The little mermaid was his most personal and most dear story, connected to different aspects of his own life. He basically IS the little mermaid. He's comforting himself with the idea that god's love is more important than earthly love.
why because he was gay? Oh please Anderson hated himself hence for being gay which is why he like to punish his protagonist and teach them a lesson.
He rather seems bisexual to me. But no, not just because he was gay, he wrote in his diaries and letters about the unrequited love he had for several people and a desire to belong. We know this for a fact.
Yeah she does. She threw herself from the ship and dissolved
She dissolved because the prince married someone else, not because she died from jumping into the ocean.
Eh no thanks. I dont want to join you in kindergarten child.
I'm afraid that's special ed for youlol. -
pandemonium91 — 9 years ago(January 30, 2017 06:12 AM)
Well, you did get it right but only caught a part of the picture. In both the movie and original story, merpeople were told to not interact with the human world because it was dangerous and could corrupt and harm them - and this applies to ALL merpeople, not just the women. The Little Mermaid explicitly disregards the warnings - both the merpeople and the Sea Witch's - because of curiosity and decides to join the human world.
TLM doesn't kill herself because the Prince married someone else. She chooses to die because she realizes he never truly loved her but, being still in love with him, she is ultimately unable to give his life in exchange for hers. In essence, she decides to accept the consequences of disregarding the warnings. The result would have been the same if it was a merman and a princess instead, the Sea Witch didn't give TLM a potion especially for women or anything.
So the book ending wasn't "sexist", and doesn't apply solely to women (even though the protagonist happened to be one). Barring the religious undertones, the lesson is that warnings are there for a reason, and once you have chosen to ignore them you must live with the consequences of your actions until you make things right (depending on the ending, TLM either turns into sea foam or is given a chance to redeem her soul). -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 06:18 AM)
Honestly, I liked the Disney version far better than the original. If anything, I actually hated the original tale, and not because the mermaid died at the end (honestly, speaking as someone who likes Mega Man Zero 4 and Under the Red Hood, I have zero problem with sad endings so long as there's at least some point to it). Actually, I had a massive problem with the original mermaid herself, as she came across as being a downright selfish brat, not to mention, unlike Ariel, it's heavily implied that pretty much the only reason she fell for the prince is simply because he coincidentally resembled a statue that was her most treasured possession and the narrative doesn't even mention any actions the prince did before she saved him (seriously, at least Ariel actually observed Eric's overall behavior before saving him). Not to mention her actions caused needless suffering to her family and everyone she supposedly cared for. Yes, her sisters sacrificed their hair in an attempt to save her sister, but considering what happened afterwards, it was a waste of a sacrifice, and they had it a bit easier than their grandma and dad, who died and had grave misfortune thanks to her running away from home, and unlike with Ariel, she ran away from home because of what was essentially a tantrum about not having a soul, with her family playing absolutely no negative action towards her beforehand. To be honest, the means where the mermaid could get a soul also frankly disturbed me, since it sounded more like the Dementor's Kiss from Harry Potter. And the whole plotline there reminds me, another reason I disliked the original tale immensely is just how stupid the whole idea of merpeople outright lacking immortal souls was, considering they not only looked roughly like human beings, they even acted like humans more or less, meaning they if anything would be just as applicable to immortal souls as humans are. I mean, I can understand if the mermaid were, say, a literal fish, because animals lack immortal souls, but merpeople were pretty obviously not animals. Even Angels only lack a body, and are otherwise spirits. And that's ignoring that her desiring the prince for an immortal soul made her no different from the likes of, say, Lord Farquaad from Shrek or even Hans from Frozen. But what REALLY grinds my gears was the ending, NOT the fact that she died, but that she was a Karma Houdini. She was essentially allowed to enter purgatory at the very least, despite all the selfish actions she conducted throughout the story, with only two actions at most having any relation to selflessness. Had I been Hans Christian Anderson and I wrote the tale, I'd do the ending very differently: I'd have God give her a soul, then damn her to Hell for all eternity for all the selfishness she displayed throughout the story, all of which outweighed any good she did there. Oh, and she made absolutely no attempt to rectify her wrongdoing, not even when she committed suicide, which benefitted absolutely NO ONE (not even the prince whom she spared, because by committing suicide, she broke his heart, since he did love her like a sister).
The Disney version was MUCH better, not simply because Ariel survives, but because in Ariel's case, she actually got to work for her actions, not to mention actually cleaned up her messes. I also especially like how the Disney version actually implies that mermaids actually have souls as well. Heck, I wouldn't have minded if the Disney version DID have Ariel dying since at least there, she would have sacrificed her life to stop Ursula in that case, and in that case would have more than earned an immortal soul with that kind of sacrifice, IF she lacked an immortal soul beforehand that is.
And anyways, a sad ending is not any guarantee that the story's going to be good. The Matrix Revolutions had a sad ending as well, yet that movie was actually downright terrible, especially when it implies that things are pretty much going to be the same as before. I also don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian. So, just because she commits suicide, that automatically makes it Christian? There was a Spartan story about a guy who basically gave his own life trying to keep a stolen fox under his tunic during training, with his being treated as a hero as a result, yet that wasn't remotely Christian in any way (heck, it predated Christianity). And the Matrix Trilogy had quite a bit of Christian references in it, yet that series of films if anything was explicitly anti-Christian (Cornel West even indicated that the whole Architect scene was meant to be a devastating critique on Salvation Stories). Japanese culture also praises suicide for a mission, and Japan isn't even a Christian country. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:11 AM)
I also don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian. So, just because she commits suicide, that automatically makes it Christian?
Is that what I said? No. I didn't even use the word Christian. I said the ending was religious and if you've read it, you'd know why.
And like I said to racy, she does not commit suicide, she simply does not do the one thing that could save her life. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:21 AM)
First of all, I wasn't even specifically talking to you this time around, I was talking about in general (and yes, there are PLENTY who took it to mean it was specifically Christian in nature, not just religious). And I have read it, quite a few times (heck, I even have it as part of a Hans Christian Anderson anthology book, if that's anything to go by), and guess what, I STILL hate it. If it were truly religious, God would have damned the Mermaid specifically BECAUSE of her selfish actions, not to mention the fact that her final actions if anything left EVERYONE hurt as a result, some even dead thanks to her like her grandma who died of a broken heart because of her running away from home.
Second of all, the fact of the matter is, she chose to kill herself, ergo, suicide. And in any case, the fact of the matter is, she still did far too many selfish actions to even get into Purgatory, let alone Heaven. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:42 AM)
I was the only one who made a reference to religion in this thread, so ofcourse it's a response to what I said. And I don't care if you hate it, the story and its ending are religious. It doesn't matter if you think it doesn't follow the Bible or what you believe to be Christian morals.
She did NOT kill herself. She let herself die. Terminally ill people don't commit suicide either if they stop their treatment. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:50 AM)
No, when I saw the thread long before you even made a post in this topic, I already was deeply considering responding to the topic anyways. Your reference to religion was coincidental to my post at best. If I wanted to specifically address your comment about religion, I would have specifically replied to you about it, NOT to the TC. At the very least, I would have specifically referred to you by name. No, when I brought up Christianity in there, I was thinking of other people who have read the fairy tale, like the author of "The Landscape of Dragons".
And for the record, people also claimed that the Matrix Trilogy was religious in its ending and its story, yet guess what, the Wachowskis made it very clear that it, if anything, was promoting Nietzschean philosophy, and Cornel West, who played a role in the movie and was even one of the inspirations for the trilogy, made it very clear that it was definitely anti-religion, certainly anti-Christian. Heck, even Final Fantasy had religious themes in the games, and yet several of them were most certainly anti-Religion (those that come to mind in particular are Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XIII, and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance).
Ah, yeah, actually, she DID kill herself. She did far more than just "let herself die", she ran to the edge of the ship and jumped off. Just letting herself die would have her just stand there as she melts into flotsam. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 09:08 AM)
You said "I ALSO don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian", which was clearly a response to racy's response to me. So yeah, it did concern my comment.
Either way, yes, the story and the ending are religious. It's literally said, so nothing obscure like The Matrix. And since we know that Andersen considered himself a devout Christian, we know this is a fact.
Jumping off a ship into the water is not automatically going to kill a mermaid. And since she knew she would turn into foam even before the sea could kill her, she was not killing herself. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 09:19 AM)
You said "I ALSO don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian", which was clearly a response to racy's response to me. So yeah, it did concern my comment.
No, it did not. There have been PLENTY of people, fans of the original tale, I should add, who specifically considered it Christian in terms of themes, NOT just religious. Like for example, the author who wrote the Landscape of Dragons when covering 1990s films. I was referencing people who were fans of the fairy tale in general (especially those who hated the Disney film), NOT you specifically or Racy. If I wanted to specifically address you or racy regarding that, I would have made sure that I responded to either of you two during your little "discussion", or at the very least directly mention either of you two by name when making the post. I feel like I have to address every single permutation of why I dislike something or am baffled about it. Even if you didn't respond to this topic, or racy, for that matter, I STILL would have said "I ALSO don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian", precisely because various fans of the original tale did in fact say it was that.
Either way, yes, the story and the ending are religious. It's literally said, so nothing obscure like The Matrix. And since we know that Andersen considered himself a devout Christian, we know this is a fact.
Yeah, and The Matrix also had references to various biblical passages, with the ship literally being named after a Babylonian king. The license plate for Agent Smith's car in Reloaded, IS 5416, was even a reference to Isaiah 54:16. And as far as whether he considered himself a devout Christian, my aunt Susan considers herself a devout Christian as well, yet she has no problem supporting various causes that explicitly go against what God decreed, like Gay Marriage or Abortion. Just considering yourself a devout Christian isn't enough, especially if you violate His rules. You need to also make sure you adhere to his rules absolutely if you don't want to get incinerated by him to truly be devout.
Jumping off a ship into the water is not automatically going to kill a mermaid. And since she knew she would turn into foam even before the sea could kill her, she was not killing herself.
She was going to drown because most likely she doesn't know how to swim as a human. It was nothing less than a sure thing that she was going to die from jumping off a ship into the water. Even if the fall itself doesn't kill her, the drowning sure would, and that's not even taking into account her dissolving. Had I been in her position, I would just stay on the ship and let myself dissolve. That would have been enough. The only exception to that rule is if she had been wired with a bomb beforehand, and jumping off is the only way to ensure their survival, like what Paz did in Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 10:05 AM)
This has absolutely nothing to do with you disliking something.
You clearly said "also", in agreement with racy's response to me. So yes, it did concern my comment, especially since I specifically called the ending religious. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it, because you've never mentioned it before. And I doubt that anybody calls the ending Christian because the mermaid commits suicide.
The Matrix contains references, The Little Mermaid is ABOUT eternal salvation in the Christian sense and gaining a soul to enter heaven. Andersen himself has said this.
I doubt she would've drowned. But she didn't drown and knew she wouldn't drown because she would turn into foam before she did. So she didn't kill herself! It doesn't matter what you would do. She's not you and what she did was more dramatic for the story. How absolutely anti-climactic if she turned into a puddle of foam on the deck of a ship. She probably thought it was more appropriate to return to the sea. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 10:15 AM)
This has absolutely nothing to do with you disliking something.
You clearly said "also", in agreement with racy's response to me. So yes, it did concern my comment, especially since I specifically called the ending religious. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it, because you've never mentioned it before. And I doubt that anybody calls the ending Christian because the mermaid commits suicide.
No, it didn't concern your comment at all, nor did it even concern racy's comment either. Even if you never responded to this thread when I made the post, I STILL would have used "also" in that statement. Want to know why? Because it was yet another point regarding the story, something actual fans have pointed out in various times they decried the original tale. The "also" was in reference to those fans, NOT you. If I wanted and intended to specifically address you, I would have made sure to specifically mention you by name at least, if not directly respond to you or racy.
The Matrix contains references, The Little Mermaid is ABOUT eternal salvation in the Christian sense and gaining a soul to enter heaven. Andersen himself has said this.
Eternal salvation, however, implies you HAVE a soul and will lose it unless you do exactly what God says for you to do, and the mermaid explicitly lacked a soul to begin with. So no, despite what Andersen said, it was NOT about Eternal Salvation at all. If it were, the mermaid would be concerned with KEEPING her soul, NOT gaining it. If anything, the DISNEY version came closer to actually pushing eternal salvation and redemption compared to the original tale. According to Christianity, humans are BORN with souls, and have to work to keep them unless they want to suffer eternal damnation. This was exactly the opposite, acting as if people LACK souls unless you do what God wants.
I doubt she would've drowned. But she didn't drown and knew she wouldn't drown because she would turn into foam before she did. So she didn't kill herself! It doesn't matter what you would do. She's not you and what she did was more dramatic for the story. How absolutely anti-climactic if she turned into a puddle of foam on the deck of a ship. She probably thought it was more appropriate to return to the sea.
She ALREADY returned to the sea by that point. Last I checked, she was on a ship, NOT dry land. And honestly, that doesn't make it more dramatic than slowly melting does, waiting for the very end. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 10:29 AM)
I don't believe you would've mentioned it, because there is nobody who claims the ending is Christian because the mermaid commits suicide. What did happen is that I called the ending religious, while racy questioned what was religious about her committing suicide.
It IS about eternal salvation. The story explicitly states that if she'd marry a human, she'd become one with him and gain a soul. The mermaid wanted a soul to ultimately enter heaven. Pay attention! This is exactly what makes the story and ending religious. I don't care what YOUR idea of Christianity and eternal salvation is.
She ALREADY returned to the sea by that point.
Please read. I said that she would end up as a puddle on the deck of the ship. How poetic -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 04:21 PM)
I don't believe you would've mentioned it, because there is nobody who claims the ending is Christian because the mermaid commits suicide. What did happen is that I called the ending religious, while racy questioned what was religious about her committing suicide.
Yes, actually, there ARE people who have mentioned it. Maybe not on here specifically, but I've seen it in "The Landscape of Dragons" when the author was comparing the Disney version of The Little Mermaid to the original tale. In fact, here's ANOTHER place that specifically cites Christian themes to the original story as well:
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2005/nov2005/morallittlemermaid1.html
THAT'S what I was addressing there, NOT you or Racy.
It IS about eternal salvation. The story explicitly states that if she'd marry a human, she'd become one with him and gain a soul. The mermaid wanted a soul to ultimately enter heaven. Pay attention! This is exactly what makes the story and ending religious. I don't care what YOUR idea of Christianity and eternal salvation is.
Yeah, I did pay attention, and it was STILL not eternal salvation at all because that was not how you get eternal salvation AT ALL, nor, for that matter was her actions at the end. And she wanted an immortal soul to essentially gain immortality. Also, I specifically addressed that bit about her marrying a human, and I'll say it yet again. Marrying a man to absorb part of his soul is just as much "eternal salvation" as the Dementor's Kiss, meaning, not at all. And yes, that aspect was VERY much comparable to the Dementor's Kiss from Harry Potter because both involve a character absorbing a person's soul via a kiss. You only gain eternal salvation by converting to Christ, end of story, not simply marrying a guy and absorbing part of his soul. And entering marriage is not enough to gain eternal salvation. You think if she were to marry, say, a Confucian or even a Muslim, she'd get eternal salvation? Absolutely NOT! It specifically requires a conversion to Christianity and a loyalty oath to Jesus Christ and his father.
Please read. I said that she would end up as a puddle on the deck of the ship. How poetic
And where do you THINK the ship would be at? The SEA! I could understand her choosing to stay and dissolving in the middle of, say, a forest, since that wouldn't fit at all.