Book vs Movie
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otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:21 AM)
First of all, I wasn't even specifically talking to you this time around, I was talking about in general (and yes, there are PLENTY who took it to mean it was specifically Christian in nature, not just religious). And I have read it, quite a few times (heck, I even have it as part of a Hans Christian Anderson anthology book, if that's anything to go by), and guess what, I STILL hate it. If it were truly religious, God would have damned the Mermaid specifically BECAUSE of her selfish actions, not to mention the fact that her final actions if anything left EVERYONE hurt as a result, some even dead thanks to her like her grandma who died of a broken heart because of her running away from home.
Second of all, the fact of the matter is, she chose to kill herself, ergo, suicide. And in any case, the fact of the matter is, she still did far too many selfish actions to even get into Purgatory, let alone Heaven. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:42 AM)
I was the only one who made a reference to religion in this thread, so ofcourse it's a response to what I said. And I don't care if you hate it, the story and its ending are religious. It doesn't matter if you think it doesn't follow the Bible or what you believe to be Christian morals.
She did NOT kill herself. She let herself die. Terminally ill people don't commit suicide either if they stop their treatment. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 08:50 AM)
No, when I saw the thread long before you even made a post in this topic, I already was deeply considering responding to the topic anyways. Your reference to religion was coincidental to my post at best. If I wanted to specifically address your comment about religion, I would have specifically replied to you about it, NOT to the TC. At the very least, I would have specifically referred to you by name. No, when I brought up Christianity in there, I was thinking of other people who have read the fairy tale, like the author of "The Landscape of Dragons".
And for the record, people also claimed that the Matrix Trilogy was religious in its ending and its story, yet guess what, the Wachowskis made it very clear that it, if anything, was promoting Nietzschean philosophy, and Cornel West, who played a role in the movie and was even one of the inspirations for the trilogy, made it very clear that it was definitely anti-religion, certainly anti-Christian. Heck, even Final Fantasy had religious themes in the games, and yet several of them were most certainly anti-Religion (those that come to mind in particular are Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XIII, and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance).
Ah, yeah, actually, she DID kill herself. She did far more than just "let herself die", she ran to the edge of the ship and jumped off. Just letting herself die would have her just stand there as she melts into flotsam. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 09:08 AM)
You said "I ALSO don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian", which was clearly a response to racy's response to me. So yeah, it did concern my comment.
Either way, yes, the story and the ending are religious. It's literally said, so nothing obscure like The Matrix. And since we know that Andersen considered himself a devout Christian, we know this is a fact.
Jumping off a ship into the water is not automatically going to kill a mermaid. And since she knew she would turn into foam even before the sea could kill her, she was not killing herself. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 09:19 AM)
You said "I ALSO don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian", which was clearly a response to racy's response to me. So yeah, it did concern my comment.
No, it did not. There have been PLENTY of people, fans of the original tale, I should add, who specifically considered it Christian in terms of themes, NOT just religious. Like for example, the author who wrote the Landscape of Dragons when covering 1990s films. I was referencing people who were fans of the fairy tale in general (especially those who hated the Disney film), NOT you specifically or Racy. If I wanted to specifically address you or racy regarding that, I would have made sure that I responded to either of you two during your little "discussion", or at the very least directly mention either of you two by name when making the post. I feel like I have to address every single permutation of why I dislike something or am baffled about it. Even if you didn't respond to this topic, or racy, for that matter, I STILL would have said "I ALSO don't see how the original tale was even remotely Christian", precisely because various fans of the original tale did in fact say it was that.
Either way, yes, the story and the ending are religious. It's literally said, so nothing obscure like The Matrix. And since we know that Andersen considered himself a devout Christian, we know this is a fact.
Yeah, and The Matrix also had references to various biblical passages, with the ship literally being named after a Babylonian king. The license plate for Agent Smith's car in Reloaded, IS 5416, was even a reference to Isaiah 54:16. And as far as whether he considered himself a devout Christian, my aunt Susan considers herself a devout Christian as well, yet she has no problem supporting various causes that explicitly go against what God decreed, like Gay Marriage or Abortion. Just considering yourself a devout Christian isn't enough, especially if you violate His rules. You need to also make sure you adhere to his rules absolutely if you don't want to get incinerated by him to truly be devout.
Jumping off a ship into the water is not automatically going to kill a mermaid. And since she knew she would turn into foam even before the sea could kill her, she was not killing herself.
She was going to drown because most likely she doesn't know how to swim as a human. It was nothing less than a sure thing that she was going to die from jumping off a ship into the water. Even if the fall itself doesn't kill her, the drowning sure would, and that's not even taking into account her dissolving. Had I been in her position, I would just stay on the ship and let myself dissolve. That would have been enough. The only exception to that rule is if she had been wired with a bomb beforehand, and jumping off is the only way to ensure their survival, like what Paz did in Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 10:05 AM)
This has absolutely nothing to do with you disliking something.
You clearly said "also", in agreement with racy's response to me. So yes, it did concern my comment, especially since I specifically called the ending religious. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it, because you've never mentioned it before. And I doubt that anybody calls the ending Christian because the mermaid commits suicide.
The Matrix contains references, The Little Mermaid is ABOUT eternal salvation in the Christian sense and gaining a soul to enter heaven. Andersen himself has said this.
I doubt she would've drowned. But she didn't drown and knew she wouldn't drown because she would turn into foam before she did. So she didn't kill herself! It doesn't matter what you would do. She's not you and what she did was more dramatic for the story. How absolutely anti-climactic if she turned into a puddle of foam on the deck of a ship. She probably thought it was more appropriate to return to the sea. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 10:15 AM)
This has absolutely nothing to do with you disliking something.
You clearly said "also", in agreement with racy's response to me. So yes, it did concern my comment, especially since I specifically called the ending religious. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it, because you've never mentioned it before. And I doubt that anybody calls the ending Christian because the mermaid commits suicide.
No, it didn't concern your comment at all, nor did it even concern racy's comment either. Even if you never responded to this thread when I made the post, I STILL would have used "also" in that statement. Want to know why? Because it was yet another point regarding the story, something actual fans have pointed out in various times they decried the original tale. The "also" was in reference to those fans, NOT you. If I wanted and intended to specifically address you, I would have made sure to specifically mention you by name at least, if not directly respond to you or racy.
The Matrix contains references, The Little Mermaid is ABOUT eternal salvation in the Christian sense and gaining a soul to enter heaven. Andersen himself has said this.
Eternal salvation, however, implies you HAVE a soul and will lose it unless you do exactly what God says for you to do, and the mermaid explicitly lacked a soul to begin with. So no, despite what Andersen said, it was NOT about Eternal Salvation at all. If it were, the mermaid would be concerned with KEEPING her soul, NOT gaining it. If anything, the DISNEY version came closer to actually pushing eternal salvation and redemption compared to the original tale. According to Christianity, humans are BORN with souls, and have to work to keep them unless they want to suffer eternal damnation. This was exactly the opposite, acting as if people LACK souls unless you do what God wants.
I doubt she would've drowned. But she didn't drown and knew she wouldn't drown because she would turn into foam before she did. So she didn't kill herself! It doesn't matter what you would do. She's not you and what she did was more dramatic for the story. How absolutely anti-climactic if she turned into a puddle of foam on the deck of a ship. She probably thought it was more appropriate to return to the sea.
She ALREADY returned to the sea by that point. Last I checked, she was on a ship, NOT dry land. And honestly, that doesn't make it more dramatic than slowly melting does, waiting for the very end. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 10:29 AM)
I don't believe you would've mentioned it, because there is nobody who claims the ending is Christian because the mermaid commits suicide. What did happen is that I called the ending religious, while racy questioned what was religious about her committing suicide.
It IS about eternal salvation. The story explicitly states that if she'd marry a human, she'd become one with him and gain a soul. The mermaid wanted a soul to ultimately enter heaven. Pay attention! This is exactly what makes the story and ending religious. I don't care what YOUR idea of Christianity and eternal salvation is.
She ALREADY returned to the sea by that point.
Please read. I said that she would end up as a puddle on the deck of the ship. How poetic -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 04:21 PM)
I don't believe you would've mentioned it, because there is nobody who claims the ending is Christian because the mermaid commits suicide. What did happen is that I called the ending religious, while racy questioned what was religious about her committing suicide.
Yes, actually, there ARE people who have mentioned it. Maybe not on here specifically, but I've seen it in "The Landscape of Dragons" when the author was comparing the Disney version of The Little Mermaid to the original tale. In fact, here's ANOTHER place that specifically cites Christian themes to the original story as well:
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2005/nov2005/morallittlemermaid1.html
THAT'S what I was addressing there, NOT you or Racy.
It IS about eternal salvation. The story explicitly states that if she'd marry a human, she'd become one with him and gain a soul. The mermaid wanted a soul to ultimately enter heaven. Pay attention! This is exactly what makes the story and ending religious. I don't care what YOUR idea of Christianity and eternal salvation is.
Yeah, I did pay attention, and it was STILL not eternal salvation at all because that was not how you get eternal salvation AT ALL, nor, for that matter was her actions at the end. And she wanted an immortal soul to essentially gain immortality. Also, I specifically addressed that bit about her marrying a human, and I'll say it yet again. Marrying a man to absorb part of his soul is just as much "eternal salvation" as the Dementor's Kiss, meaning, not at all. And yes, that aspect was VERY much comparable to the Dementor's Kiss from Harry Potter because both involve a character absorbing a person's soul via a kiss. You only gain eternal salvation by converting to Christ, end of story, not simply marrying a guy and absorbing part of his soul. And entering marriage is not enough to gain eternal salvation. You think if she were to marry, say, a Confucian or even a Muslim, she'd get eternal salvation? Absolutely NOT! It specifically requires a conversion to Christianity and a loyalty oath to Jesus Christ and his father.
Please read. I said that she would end up as a puddle on the deck of the ship. How poetic
And where do you THINK the ship would be at? The SEA! I could understand her choosing to stay and dissolving in the middle of, say, a forest, since that wouldn't fit at all. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 04:45 PM)
In fact, here's ANOTHER place that specifically cites Christian themes to the original story as well
EVERY expert on Andersen says there's Christian or religious themes to the story. But nowhere in that link does anyone say that the mermaid committing suicide is a Christian theme. The connection between suicide and religion was made in this thread by racy because I said the ending was religious.
Yeah, I did pay attention, and it was STILL not eternal salvation at all because that was not how you get eternal salvation AT ALL, nor, for that matter was her actions at the end.
Again, it's not about what YOU believe, it's about what Andersen believed and intended. He was the one who wrote the story, remember?
And where do you THINK the ship would be at? The SEA!
You are really dense, aren't you? I said that she jumped from the ship because she felt that being in the sea would be more appropriate. I'm talking about physically returning to the sea. You know, because that's where mermaids come from and because the grandmother said that when mermaids die they become foam on the surface of the sea. Mermaids do not belong as puddles on the deck of a ship. Jeez! -
otness_e — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 05:43 PM)
EVERY expert on Andersen says there's Christian or religious themes to the story. But nowhere in that link does anyone say that the mermaid committing suicide is a Christian theme. The connection between suicide and religion was made in this thread by racy because I said the ending was religious.
Actually, a lot of people were thinking it was a Christian story simply because the Mermaid chose to kill herself rather than killing the Prince and basically was allowed into heaven. I've seen these claims long before racy even brought them up in this thread.
Again, it's not about what YOU believe, it's about what Andersen believed and intended. He was the one who wrote the story, remember?
Yeah, he wrote it. And Hideo Kojima wrote Metal Gear and believed that America's coming close to placing the world into global mind control. Doesn't mean that actually IS the case. And I'm not going by what I myself believe, I'm going by what the bible and catechism itself specifically states.
You are really dense, aren't you? I said that she jumped from the ship because she felt that being in the sea would be more appropriate. I'm talking about physically returning to the sea. You know, because that's where mermaids come from and because the grandmother said that when mermaids die they become foam on the surface of the sea. Mermaids do not belong as puddles on the deck of a ship. Jeez!
So why was there a skeleton of a mermaid near the Sea Witch's lair? Last I checked, if that's how all Merpeople are destined to be, they shouldn't even leave behind a skeleton, much less have it be part of the seaweed monsters' display. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 06:19 PM)
Actually, a lot of people were thinking it was a Christian story simply because the Mermaid chose to kill herself rather than killing the Prince and basically was allowed into heaven. I've seen these claims long before racy even brought them up in this thread.
Not in the link you provided and since you've never brought it up before, I'm pretty sure it was a reference to my comment, even if it was indirect.
But you really want to keep on discussing whether or not you were talking about what I said? You've chosen to talk about it NOW.
Yeah, he wrote it. And Hideo Kojima wrote Metal Gear and believed that America's coming close to placing the world into global mind control. Doesn't mean that actually IS the case. And I'm not going by what I myself believe, I'm going by what the bible and catechism itself specifically states.
What IS the case is that Andersen wrote it and he claimed to be a religious man and this story was meant to be about eternal salvation. Ergo, it has religious themes. That's how literature works. It doesn't matter at all if you believe it doesn't follow the bible.
So why was there a skeleton of a mermaid near the Sea Witch's lair?
I'm sure that when that mermaid's body had fully decomposed it also became foam on the surface of the sea. The little mermaid immediately turned into foam because that was the stipulation of the witch's spell. But you're ignoring my point that what happened to the little mermaid is exactly what the grandmother said happened to mermaids when they die, it's poetic and dramatic. She literally falls apart into foam onto the waves. -
racy1285 — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 01:52 PM)
And I don't care if you hate it, the story and its ending are religious.
Thats just your opinion doesnt make it fact.
e It doesn't matter if you think it doesn't follow the Bible or what you believe to be Christian morals.
Why doesnt it matter? Because the facts of the bible doesnt line up with your opinion lol. The universe doesnt center on your beliefs.
She did NOT kill herself. She let herself die. Terminally ill people don't commit suicide either if they stop their treatment.
Lol whats the difference between killing herself and letting her self die? Nothing its still suicide.
Who said people who are terminally ill and refusing treatment is commiting suicide? If your comparing that to what happened in the story thats stupid. No where close to the same.
People who are terminally ill are infected with a disease thats nearly impossible to cure. Most treatments barely work and the best they can do is give you more time But eventually you will die from it. You think people randomly walk around the world and say "gee I what to be infected with a fatal disease today" lol your clearly insane.
Its a clear suicide in the story because the Mermaid willingly does it. She is not forced into it like people who are infected by fatal disease. Its no different then jumping off a high building. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(January 26, 2017 02:53 PM)
No need to answer for otness, I'm sure he can do it himself.
Thats just your opinion doesnt make it fact.
It's a fact that the story addresses gaining a soul and going to heaven multiple times, especially the ending. Therefore, it's religious.
Why doesnt it matter? Because the facts of the bible doesnt line up with your opinion lol. The universe doesnt center on your beliefs.
Wow, you're dumb. It doesn't matter what I, you or otness believe, it's about what Andersen believed and how that's reflected in his work.
Clearly you don't know the definition of suicide. It's intentionally taking your own life. The mermaid didn't take her own life, the witch's spell did. If she had the power, she would've chosen to stay alive and not kill someone, but she couldn't. Are you saying that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to kill someone you love or they'll kill you, and you refuse, then that's also suicide because you let yourself die? Don't be ridiculous.
You think people randomly walk around the world and say "gee I what to be infected with a fatal disease today" lol your clearly insane.
You are insane. I didn't say anything remotely like it. Many terminally people stop their treatment because of the pain and suffering even if there's a chance they'll survive. It's comparable to the mermaid because the price she had to pay was to live with the guilt and sadness over killing someone she loved and she couldn't live with that.
Its no different then jumping off a high building.
Like jumping of a building when you know that you're going to die from a gunshot wound to the head before you hit the ground. -
Andthatismytwocents — 9 years ago(January 28, 2017 03:36 PM)
WELL Alot to read here
First off went to where the mermaid story began for me
The animated Reader's Digest version made back in the early seventies which is a more faithful adaptation of the original story
And there are alot of "messages" there from religious to moralism
The transcendence of mermaid to human human to angel
and the hope that the final journey is truly paradise especially for those who had/have hardships undeserved or otherwise
Though "flawed" the Disney film also has it's points including transcendence
and the fact that just because viewpoints differ does not mean no love lost between anyone
I like both versions for I live(d) the Anderson version some many years now yet hope for the Disney one and in today's screwed up world MANY need that
not selfstyled one note idiots in life on network and you tube
BUT
that is the price of Democracy