I don't think "murder" means what this guy thinks it means.
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cathaven97 — 9 years ago(November 18, 2016 03:37 PM)
Two armed men shooting at each other - one is luckier/has a better aim - it's murder? That's like a losing boxer going to to cops after a match and saying he was assaulted.
By the way, finally watched Doc a couple of weeks ago, and you were sure right in your recollections; it was prerty bad.
Oh, that was horrendous - everything about it. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(November 18, 2016 05:14 PM)
Yeah, I was really wanting to get at least one good thing out of it, but there was nothing to take at all. I had put it off for so long, worried about what it would be like, and then after seeing it I wish I had kept putting it off.
I have to admit, that I think Keach could really play Doc well, but he would need a much better everything (script, director, co-starring cast, etc.)
"I am on intimate terms with the desert"
Anyone know the reference? -
bobbiekaye69 — 9 years ago(November 19, 2016 08:30 PM)
Wyatt's killing of Curly Bill was no more murder than the street fight was, yet by the graves of Billy Clanton and the McLaurys, a sign says "Murdered on the Streets of Tombstone. It's all about semantics.
I think the guy in the video probably has the correct location, but he's wrong about one thing. Johnny Barnes was mortally wounded in the exchange, but he lived long enough to give pretty much the same version as Wyatt Earp.
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 10, 2016 09:53 AM)
Just to expound on the Barnes death. Apparently, he was carted to Petersons ranch with Curly Bill's body in order to get medical treatment. He supposedly thought he was going to die, but then started to recover. He registered to vote in October of 1882 and was in New Mexico in 1883, possibly with Pony Deal. He was involved in a good ol' cowboy cowardly killing and arrested. I don't think anyone's certain what happened next, but he was supposed to be sent to prison in, I believe, Missouri. He was reported to have escaped (prior to transfer, I think), but this could be when the disability finally caught up with him. One person recalled that he was supposed to do his time, but his Tombstone injuries finally overcame him.
"I am on intimate terms with the desert"
Anyone know the reference? -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 12, 2016 12:40 PM)
Thats the common misconception; i thought so too for a long time. But Fred Dodge never said that Barnes statement was moments before he died, its just what people extrapolated from.
As far as I know there is no certain date of death but it seems to be most likely in late '83.
"I am on intimate terms with the desert"
Anyone know the reference? -
bobbiekaye69 — 9 years ago(December 13, 2016 12:08 PM)
Well, that kind of shoots a hole in the "Wyatt killed four men on the Vendetta Ride" theory. Frank Stilwell, Florentino "Indian Charlie" Cruz, and Curly Bill Brocius. That's only three.
If Barnes died two years later, I don't think you can necessarily lay the blame, or the credit, at Wyatt's feet.
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good. -
Bilwick1 — 9 years ago(December 13, 2016 12:46 PM)
"Well, that kind of shoots a hole in the 'Wyatt killed four men on the Vendetta Ride' theory. Frank Stilwell, Florentino "Indian Charlie" Cruz, and Curly Bill Brocius. That's only three. "
There may have been firefights with isolated bands of Cowboys (and therefore casualties) that were never documented. A reporter interviewing Warren and Wyatt in Colorado soon after their arrival from Arizona mentioned Warren limping from a leg wound as a result of the Vendetta Ride, but no details were given. He could have gotten it, I suppose, during the fight at Iron Springs but I've never seen any information that any of the Earp party (other than Texas Jack's horse) were injured during that encounter. There is also a tantalizing mention of "Apache Hank" Swilling getting killed by the Earp party during the Ride, but no further documentation that I have seen.
Even so, TOMBSTONE certainly inflated the amount of carnage during the Ride. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 13, 2016 04:06 PM)
I think Warren was in California at the moment. Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was on an errand at the time of the Iron springs shootout.
But I definitely agree that there were more dead cowboys than we know about. I mentioned before about the Tombstonian who commented about "how many more bodies are out there that we'll never know about". Wyatt and friends weren't exactly running around parading their kills. And when you get into the sheep theft factor in the area and the bounties on heads of rustlers, and of course Wyatts current tempermant, it makes a lot of sense that there was more happened than we know about.
"I am on intimate terms with the desert"
Anyone know the reference? -
bobbiekaye69 — 9 years ago(December 14, 2016 07:42 AM)
I believe Warren was with Wyatt on the Vendetta Ride, but I don't think he was at Iron Springs. I believe he was supposed to be meeting someone who was bringing cash from Tombstone.
You'd think that if Wyatt and his men killed more cowboys during the Vendetta Ride, that someone would've said something about it eventually. Wyatt would probably have told Flood or Lake, or at least Josie would've told about it later. She did claim that Wyatt killed Ringo.
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 14, 2016 05:49 PM)
Warren was definitely on the Vendetta Ride but at the time of the Curly Bill shoot-out I'm pretty sure he was elsewhere, I just can't recall at the moment. I believe the person bringing the money was someone named Smith or Harris, I'd have to look that up too.
As tight-lipped as Wyatt was, I'm sure there are a lot of things we will never know that happened in his life. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 13, 2016 04:14 PM)
I would still attribute it to Wyatt. He was only 21 when he died, and the sole reason for such an early expiration, at a time when men are usually healthy and full of life, was an injury from Wyatts gun that he could never overcome, I'd say that belongs to Wyatt.
Plus, I'm extremely confident that Wyatt offed Ringo. There is just too much evidence now to say he didn't. Obviously we can't know for sure, but it gets harder and harder to make the caee that he wasnt at very least present and involved.
Btw, the new book "Wyatt Earps Bloody Campaign" has some real good info on circumstamces at the time to establish Wyatt in the Ringo killing. I'd definitely recommend it for your christmas list, becuase I know how much you love these things.
"I am on intimate terms with the desert"
Anyone know the reference? -
bobbiekaye69 — 9 years ago(December 14, 2016 07:54 AM)
I'll have to look for that book, thanks. But at this point, I completely disagree about Ringo. All the evidence suggests suicide. Billy Breakenridge saw him a day or two before, and Ringo was drunk as a skunk. He was severely depressed, and besides, he was manic/depressive anyway. All of his friends were dead, he'd been rejected by his family, and he chose to end it.
The fact that his cartridge belts were on upside down suggest that he was drunk, too. And as for the strip of skin that had been "scalped" from his forehead, I think that was from some carrion bird having a snack.
For Wyatt to risk everything by returning from Colorado stretches the imagination. I've heard the route described, taking train, stage, and horse, through what had become enemy territory, just to assassinate someone who probably wasn't involved in the shootings of Virgil or Morgan. Even finding Ringo would've been nigh impossible. I just can't buy it.
A vulture tried to board an airplane carrying three dead rats. The flight attendant stopped him, saying "Sorry, only two carrions per passenger."
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 14, 2016 10:51 AM)
But there's a lot more information than that now. I think a lot of it might be in that book, and yeah, thats probably the correct title. It's by Chuck Parsons I believe.
One example is the account of Wyatt & a few compadres being seen getting off the train in Deming New Mexico just a few days before the death. He was taken to a livery him & his men were given fresh horses. And this account was given by a contemporary who was there to escort Wyatt to the horses. It was given as an anecdote long before there was ever a debate over the Ringo killing.
There's other information and when I get a chance I'll post it up here so you do some reviewing for yourself. I'm sure you'll be intrigued, even if not persuaded.
Additionally, there was a bounty out for Ringo, sponsored by the ranchers and led by Hooker, who were in an alliance with someone that I can't recall at the moment, but is very significant. -
A_Real_Hip_Dude — 9 years ago(December 14, 2016 06:02 PM)
I'm still trying to find some of that Ringo info, but in the process I came across the name of a guy who recalled Barnes being arrested and sent to Missouri to be locked up. His name was Sam Aaron and he was a young citizen of Charleston at the time of the "cow-boys". His account is the same as several newspaper reports that told the story of a hold-up involving Barnes and resulting in his arrest.
Here's what seems to be reliably known.- Barnes registered to vote in Oct 1882 (This came from Gary Roberts)
- Barnes was arrested for murder and stage hold up in 1883 (This comes from a Soccorro New Mexico newspaper)
- Barnes was held for murder and being sent to prison in Missouri since NM didn't have a Fed-Penn (This is in the Las Vegas Daily
Herald(?)
)
Sam Aaron's account is brief and seems to be almost a passing thought of a connection he had, but it's contemporary and lines up with newspaper accounts.
I'll keep looking for more of that Ringo info, but I do recall that Vail and Hooker were the head of a ranchers association with a personal issue with Ringo and were supplying money and support to someone to get him. Additionally, a pair of sheep stockmen were offering a reward for Ringo and posted the info, as well as mailing Gov. Gosper their intent to stop him. This was propagated by the incident when he had offered all the mutton that Charleston could consume at the price of 1.00 a head. There are more details that tie in Wyatt, but needless to say, Ringo was not safe in the area. The end of the cow-boys began when they murdered Morgan, and then Stillwell was killed. The men of the area weren't content in letting the rest of these bandits slink away and keep stealing and robbing. They seemed determined to finish them off, and when all the pieces are looked at it's awfully compelling to see Wyatt as the most efficient tool they could apply.
This is a big part of why I believe Wyatt killed Ringo, as well as believing that it wasn't just Stillwell, Cruz, and Curly that he offed.