Ruben Sandwich
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BullSchmidt — 17 years ago(March 29, 2009 09:25 PM)
Correct except for this part:
Van Doren is referring to Goodwin being Jewish when he says to him,"I knew there was a "K" in Nebraska", "K" being an abbreviation for an offensive term for Jews
Even if the fictionalized Mark Van Doren of
Quiz Show
had been a raging anti-Semite and he wasn't he was still far too polite a person to make a crude crack like that. And although
Quiz Show
is a movie, not a documentary, some respect is due to the real persons behind the characters by all accounts, the idea that the real Mark Van Doren would have ever used a vulgar epithet like "k*ke," or any allusion to it, in
any
context is absurd.
As for "K" vs. "Kay," it's a pun made on the spur of the moment, that's all. Van Doren was a poet, after all, who presumably enjoyed playing with words.
Oh, and it's spelled "Reuben," not "Ruben." -
Ipsissimus — 16 years ago(May 16, 2009 03:09 AM)
The spelling of the name of the sandwich can go either way; check it out. I don't know how you can presume to know what Mark Van Doren might have said under such circumstances, how polite he was, or if he was or was not an anti-Semite. Did you know the man? If your source is a biography that would carry some weight, but it doesn't prove that Van Doren, especially in a fictionalized movie, could not have said something of that nature, anti-Semite or not. In those days people were less circumspect about making derogatory remarks about religious faith or race and made casual references of that kind, especially coded ones, more than they do today. How do I know? Because I lived in that era and because I read history books and watch documentaries. Your assertion that Van Doren was engaging in a bit of word play doesn't wash, in my opinion. If "I knew there was a "k" in Nebraska" is merely word play it is of the lamest possible kind (especially coming from a man as intelligent as Van Doren), barely qualifiying as even a bad pun; indeed, if it didn't have a coded meaning the remark is just plain asinine, not even worthy of a rejoinder. In my opinion Van Doren was making a sly joke (albeit in bad taste) to Goodwin, hence Goodwin's retort, which you didn't address in your post. Why would Goodwin respond to Van Doren as he did if he didn't pick up on the crudely veiled reference to his-Goodwin's-being a Jew? When Van Doren replies, "Touche" to Goodwin's retort Van Doren is acknowledging Goodwin's perceptivity and wit. It really seems obvious.
" Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." -
mykungfuistrong — 16 years ago(July 12, 2009 08:26 AM)
Ipsissimus, thank you for your supposition about the meaning of the exchange. It's a part that I didn't really dwell on, but now that you mention it, I'm sure your interpretation must be fairly close to the mark. The idea that it was mere "word play" would involve SOME sort of double entendre', other than simply suggesting an alternate spelling!? That's simply willfully blind to an ongoing subplot of the film. I think your summation of the little exchange is right in line with the film's message, and the remark doesn't have to be taken as anti-Semitic; it could be simply one Ivy-league intellectual sparring with another, and not meaning any insult by the simple observation.
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estcst-3 — 16 years ago(September 20, 2009 03:05 PM)
I don't know how you can presume to know what Mark Van Doren might have said under such circumstances, how polite he was, or if he was or was not an anti-Semite. Did you know the man?
As much as there is some interesting points I find it ironic that you feel free to make assumption appear as fact while shouting down someone else who didn't even go that far. I guess it's a telling trait. -
RomeClone — 14 years ago(November 27, 2011 02:30 PM)
Ipsissimus, I agree with your logic but not your conclusion. I'm in the camp that doesn't think the comment had anything to do with antisemitism.
While I agree that the pun "I knew there was a 'K' in Nebraska" is lame and not that clever, I think it's just as much of a stretch to somehow warp the comment into a Jewish slur.
If he actually somehow worked the word kke into a conversation it would be one thing, or if merely saying the letter "k" stood for that word, then you would be right. But to infer from his comment that by "k" he meant "kke" is too much of a stretch.
If you watch that scene you'll notice that Goodwin doesn't even pause or give a knowing look to the elder Van Doren after his comment. Instead, he immediately says the thing about the restaurant having the sandwich but no Reubens. It's not a combative retort, rather a separate thought. Both Van Doren's pause and look at each other before the elder one replies "touche." It looks like they're taken abacknot offended, mind youby Goodwin's forwardness about the obvious demographic of the restaurant. Van Doren's reply of "touche" could very well just be an acknowledgement of the restaurant's exclusionary environmentsomething a well-to-do professor would never have had to notice before. At the same time, he's commending Goodwin for his quick wit, as you said.
Yes, back then people were much more free and loose with racial jokes, but it would be beneath a man with the intellect of Van Doren to be so crass to another man's face. Among his fellow WASP friends, maybe, but to just intentionally throw a racial slur out at a Jewish man he just met, no way. -
bron-tay — 12 years ago(October 03, 2013 09:00 PM)
NONSENSE about Van Doren making that crude anti-Jewish crack.
It doesn't even make sense within the context of the scene as played; when Goodwin says "They've got the sandwich but no Reubens," Van Doren uncomfortably sucks his pipe and says "Touche," conferring a note of sympathy and admiration on Goodwin's protest.
Van Doren was educated, cultured, polite. Not a man to crudely insult his own lunch guest.Please put some dashes above your sig line so I won't think it's part of your dumb post. -
HarveyManfredSinJohn — 11 years ago(September 13, 2014 08:16 AM)
I entirely agree with all the commenters who have argued that Mark Van Doren was not making an anti-Semitic jibe firing the restaurant scene.
Even if Van Doren was an anti-Semite he was far too polite and
genteel
to be so openly racist. Moreover, Mark Van Doren is presented as an admirable man, in contrast to his son, who is clearly liked by Goodwin (which is one of the reasons he gives Charles such an easy ride during the early part of his investigation), so it wouldn't make sense to present him harbouring such ugly beliefs. -
smoko — 10 years ago(May 31, 2015 12:48 AM)
@bron-tay
Van Doren was educated, cultured, polite. Not a man to crudely insult his own lunch guest.
Hell, it wasn't even his guest but his son's guest.
The poster above, and anyone else who thinks that Van Doren was making an anti-Semitic remark, is nutso. -
hchudy — 10 years ago(July 11, 2015 12:34 PM)
While we now find the word incredibly offensive, people at that time, even educated ones, might have casually used it without thinking. Different era, different mind set. My MIL, whose best friend is Jewish, actually asked me "where do all the Jewish people live" while visiting a new city. I am not saying it is the same thing as using the K word, but it is still an offensive question in this era. But to her, having grown up in the 40s/50s, it was just a question. Yes, it was still an insult to use the word, but probably not met with quite the outrage it would be now. And Goodwin's answer was priceless.
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charlesheld — 16 years ago(August 05, 2009 10:17 AM)
My take on the scene is that the senior Van Doren, being an educated man, knows the legend of the origin of the Reuben sandwich and knows that the proper name of its inventor is Kulakofsky, not "Kay". So when Goodwin tries to elevate himself to the Van Dorens' intellectual level by relating the story, Van Doren makes an inside joke to himself with the "K in Nebraska" remark. A contemporary example would be the referral to Duke's basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski as "Coach K" because of the difficulty of spelling his name.
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erikriveros — 14 years ago(April 05, 2011 06:41 AM)
'i knew there was a 'k' in nebraska' had nothing to do with anti-semitism
it was a cute and playful play on wordsas someone else said he was brilliant and a poet.
morrow says something to the effect of 'k from omaha'the elder van doren replies 'i always knew there was a k in nebrasKa'..that's all
it is better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it -
I_Created_U — 9 years ago(October 14, 2016 04:11 AM)
morrow says something to the effect of 'k from omaha'the elder van doren replies 'i always knew there was a k in nebrasKa'..that's all
After reading most of the thread and your comment, I still have no idea what that joke's supposed to mean. Ugh beep it.
People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs -
TrapLordRonSwanson — 9 years ago(December 22, 2016 11:13 AM)
I still don't get the "K in Nebraska" joke after reading the thread. I don't believe that it was an anti-Semitic poke either, but how is "I knew there wasn't a K in Nebraska" a play on words at all??
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