A few things I don't understand… (Spoilers)
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Tony_Silvio — 9 years ago(August 30, 2016 04:16 AM)
You just brought something to my attention that makes the whole thing possibly even more far-fetched: Kujan's tunnel vision on Keaton and the fact that Verbal and Keaton were friends. They met in county where Verbal was doing time for fraud, he says.
So, are we supposed to believe Verbal ended up in jail (not prison) for some misdemeanor, where he happens to meet and befriend the man who is going to take the fall/credit for the whole operation because the agent who shows up has a history with Keaton and also gets Verbal in an office with him for a few hours?
Or are we supposed to believe that the whole thing was intricately planned and went off virtually without a hitch? That seems equally unlikely. Unless I missed something and Kujan only showed up because he requested to be sent over a personal vendetta, which Verbal had counted on.. That makes it a little more reasonable, I suppose, but only a little. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(August 30, 2016 11:04 AM)
So, are we supposed to believe Verbal ended up in jail (not prison) for some misdemeanor, where he happens to meet and befriend the man who is going to take the fall/credit for the whole operation because the agent who shows up has a history with Keaton and also gets Verbal in an office with him for a few hours?
When Verbal planned this, he never intended to put the blame on Keaton or expected Kujan to drop by. It was just supposed to be a story about a dope deal gone wrong. It seems he already mentioned having met Keaton before in his statement to the DA. The reason for this is that it makes it more believably that Verbal got involved in the heist, as Keaton apparently trusted him. It could be he lied about a previous encounter with Keaton thinking they wouldn't bother checking it, but it's also possible he arranged for the police records to be changed, just like he arranged the line-up.
Kujan did show up on his own accord, but it's not something Verbal counted on. -
Tony_Silvio — 9 years ago(August 30, 2016 01:24 PM)
Well, depending on what he told the DA, it doesn't seem to have been a lie. If we're to allow that the post-lineup scene in the holding cell actually happened, verbal tells McManus how he met Keaton and Keaton doesn't deny it. Don't you just find it a bit odd that someone like Kint could pull this whole thing off, but not be able to talk his way out of a brief stint in the county jail for misdemeanor fraud?
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Stratego — 9 years ago(September 01, 2016 03:50 PM)
Don't you just find it a bit odd that someone like Kint could pull this whole thing off, but not be able to talk his way out of a brief stint in the county jail for misdemeanor fraud?
No, because if he did spend time in jail (instead of just changing the police records, which he easily could've done and which I think is more likely), then he did so because he wanted to establish a connection to Keaton.
Or are you saying that the cops should find it odd? In that case it's still no, because a mysterious third party was involved in the boat heist. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(September 02, 2016 12:39 PM)
Well he didn't change any records, he definitely was jailed with the guy.
Uhm, how do you know this? There has to be a file on Verbal Kint, this supposed arrest could very much be included.
I don't find it believable that he even planned that.
Why not? He clearly planned the line-up, why not his stint in jail? I think it's plausible, although falsifying police records would be easier. -
Tony_Silvio — 9 years ago(September 02, 2016 01:28 PM)
It seems pretty incredible that a plan that elaborate actually worked perfectly. I say perfectly even though he ended up in a room with Kuja (whom we would have to accept he planned for), because he knew he could talk his way to freedom.
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Stratego — 9 years ago(September 02, 2016 03:24 PM)
(whom we would have to accept he planned for),
No, we don't have to accept that. I don't think he expected Kujan at all. He just wanted to tell the story of a dope deal gone wrong. It was Kujan's interference that forced him to change his story, taking inspiration from the bulletin board. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(September 02, 2016 03:20 PM)
Like you said yourself, "If we're to allow that the post-lineup scene in the holding cell actually happened". Why should we? There's no reason to believe it really happened. Since it was all a set-up, MacManus probably never brought up the heist job either, it was most likely Verbal who did.
But as I said, if he did spend time in jail, he did it to establish a connection to Keaton. -
Tony_Silvio — 9 years ago(September 02, 2016 03:32 PM)
Yeah, I am definitely not convinced that part actually happened, but if anything in the movie was depicted accurately, up to that point was probably it. We're pretty much arguing nothing now, haha. Good chatting with you!
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Klockard23 — 9 years ago(July 15, 2016 04:20 PM)
No piece of evidence except Keaton calling him Soze in the opening scene, and the fact that Soze in that scene has all the items that Verbal asks for at the end - gold watch, gold lighter, cigarettes, etc. Plus, the way the movie is edited at the end with cuts between Kujan talking about Soze and revealing to us that Verbal isn't quite the crippled weakling we've been lead to believe is obviously the film telling you that Verbal is Soze.
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sesquick-seabag — 9 years ago(July 15, 2016 05:30 PM)
None of that stuff actually positively ID's him as Soze, though.
Keaton calling him Soze in the opening scene
Keaton doesn't have any ID for Soze though. He's just assuming that the guy who tricked him all along about being a hapless petty conman and cripple must be the guy pulling the strings.
and the fact that Soze in that scene has all the items that Verbal asks for at the end - gold watch, gold lighter, cigarettes, etc.
Just means he was the guy who shot Keaton, not that his real identity is Keyser Soze.
the way the movie is edited at the end with cuts between Kujan talking about Soze and revealing to us that Verbal isn't quite the crippled weakling we've been lead to believe is obviously the film telling you that Verbal is Soze.
All that logically implies is that Verbal is lying about being a cripple. There's no unavoidable logical pathway from lying about being a cripple, and lying about being a stupid petty crook, to being Person X. All it implies in-and-of-itself is he's misrepresenting himself.
So the interpretation that Verbal is a hitman and spy in Soze's employ remains equally plausible. -
Klockard23 — 9 years ago(July 15, 2016 06:36 PM)
The movie is clearly communicating to you with editing and visuals that Verbal is Soze. If you lack the most basic insight to get that, that's your issue. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
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sesquick-seabag — 9 years ago(July 15, 2016 06:55 PM)
Now, now, little child. No need for the abusiveness. And, no, the "visuals and editing" don't explicitly confirm any such thing, as I said. If you think it does it's you, not I, who lacks logic. I won't go over the points I previously made, because you probably didn't even read them in the first place. But they still stand and you failed to dispute any of them.
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Klockard23 — 9 years ago(July 15, 2016 07:18 PM)
Your points are weak as hell and not even worthy of consideration. And yes, the way the movie is cut together, it is clearly telling you, the audience, that you're supposed to think Verbal is Soze. Anyone with common sense should be able to "get" that and come away from the film thinking that without having subtitles slapped on the screen telling you. It's all right there, even right down to a man who knows what Soze looks like describing a sketch that looks exactly like Kent.
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sesquick-seabag — 9 years ago(July 15, 2016 07:53 PM)
Not necessarily, no. And your vindictiveness doesn't lend any substance to what you say. All "the way the movie is cut together" - by which I presume you mean the montage of Kujan reading notice board, Kint walking out of the station, the zoom-in on the name Kobayashi on the base of the coffee-cup, Kobayashi picking Verbal up - clearly shows is that a) Verbal isn't a cripple, b) he took names off the notice board, c) he's in cahoots with the guy (whom he called Kobayashi) who made the proposition to the gang on Soze's behalf. In other words, he's not who he says he is. Not that he necessarily IS Keyser Soze - or even that there's necessarily any such person. The sketch is the most compelling piece of evidence but even then it's can't seriously be considered conclusive beyond any reasonable doubt. The Hungarian was delirious, and it's not made manifestly clear that Soze's real identity was made known to him. He saw Verbal "in the harbour, killing many men" - that's only evidence that he was the gunman, not that his real identity is Keyser Soze. I mean the writer has said that Verbal=Soze isn't the only reasonable interpretation for gods' sake! So your nastiness is plain out of order.