Did Marie have Insestruous feelings toward Raymond?
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Jupiter555555 — 9 years ago(May 02, 2016 03:03 PM)
So, you literally believe that your mother-in-law is interested in a sexual relationship with her son, your husband? I find that very hard to believe.
And if, indeed, that were (literally) true, it's doubtful that you'd be posting that in a public forum.
My point is: I believe that you are being more figurative than literal.
Once when we were still dating, she saw us holding hands as we were walking up the walkway to her house. I saw her looking through the window. When we got inside she was furious for no apparent reason and began yelling at my now husband about a bunch of irrational crap, among other things saying that he's been spending too much time with me and that she's more important. I was right there, mind you Maybe it's a coincidence that this took place right after she spied on us and saw us holding hands while walking up the walk. Or it was spurred by seeing me hold her son's hand. It's all speculation, but I have my beliefs. Your side is equally speculator, right down to what
I
think and what I'd post on a public forum. -
JosephASpadaro — 9 years ago(May 02, 2016 08:25 PM)
Everything you described sounds like an over-protective mother who babies her son and does not find any female to be "good enough" as a wife for him. Just like Marie. None of what you stated in any remote way speaks to incestuous feelings. I think you are applying the word "incest" rather broadly. I highly doubt your mother-in-law wants to have sexual intercourse, anal intercourse, fellatio, or cunnilingus with your husband, her son. Let's be realistic. I use those graphic terms so that you can actually visualize the idea that you are proposing.
Very. Highly. Unlikely. -
Wildstyle26 — 9 years ago(May 02, 2016 08:37 PM)
Yeah. I think the humor is that it can come off as inappropriate, but it's not a serious issue.
The Barones are known for not having good boundaries, with how they just barge into the house, and blurt out whatever is on their minds. They basically have no sense of tact or filters. Look ho Marie just comes over with 2 friends while Debra is wrestling with the kids. Marie should be able to see it wasn't a good time, and Debra even told her it wasn't. But Marie wouldn't let it go, so Debra finally yelled at her in front of her friends before she got the point.
So Marie's actions toward Ray are an over protective mother, but due to her overbearing nature, and fondness for her little boy, she behaves in an even more extreme manner and with her lack of tact, it comes off as creepy. Some parents are just like that with kids. because even if their kids are grown, they still see their baby, and sometimes it manifests in awkward ways.
If we're gonna get serious or grasp, then Debra and Ray are perverted. When looking at a sonogram of the twins both of them comment their sons' penises are cute. Why are they looking at their sons' privates and gushing?
There was the episode
Pants on Fire.
It was Ray's b-day soon, and Marie tells him to be sure he's someplace she can find him to give him his birth min. kiss. She then warns him not to be in the shower this year because it was awkward last time that happened. If she was lusting for Ray, she'd have enjoyed catching him in the shower.
And her comment about "if he wasn't my son" shows she's not incestuous. Because some who is won't care about the bond of blood. They'll go ahead and try to sleep with their brother, sister, father, etc. But she acknowledges that Ray is not bad-looking. But her lack of tact + boundaries is the problem. -
JosephASpadaro — 9 years ago(May 02, 2016 09:05 PM)
To SilverWolf442:
Very well said. I agree.
Some people don't "get" how a sit-com works, it seems.
They (the writers and actors and producers) take an everyday life situation. And then they highly exaggerate it. (Even to a ridiculous degree.) And the exaggeration is precisely what makes things funny. And, thus, the exaggeration is one of the ingredients and probably the main ingredient for a successful sit-com.
On these Message Boards, some people want to see the sit-com characters behave exactly the same way that real-life people behave. Well, if they were to do that, I have news for you. Then, it's not a sit-com. I repeat,
not
a sit-com. That would be called a documentary or perhaps a drama. But definitely not a sit-com.
So, people shouldn't watch a sit-com, expect the sit-com to be funny, and then complain when the sit-com employs all the standard tactics in order to, in fact, be funny.
Geez. -
rockville_lady — 9 years ago(June 24, 2016 07:16 AM)
There was an episode in S8 where Marie was complaining about Frank and Debra about Ray. Marie asked Debra if she wanted to switch"If I was 40 years younger and Ray wasn't my son". Ray said "Maaaa stop" so it didn't go any further but yeah, I can see Marie having these feelings.
Let's not forget how in the season finale after she found out how Ray had trouble coming out of anesthesia she LEAPT into bed and started caressing/kissing Ray. That part totally ooooged me out! -
user-19247 — 9 years ago(June 24, 2016 05:47 PM)
In the last episode when Marie realizes Ray had problems waking up from his operation, camera cut to: Ray and Debra making out in their bed, and Marie jump into the bed, pushing Debra and starting showering Ray in Kisses. Debra says: "this was about to happen".
It might be an Italian Mom thingeven Jewish Mombut there is a Freudian relationship there. -
lpt0127 — 9 years ago(May 02, 2016 05:42 PM)
I noticed that, too.. she did push the envelope a few times.
one time remarking how Ray was strong and virile, neither of which were true.. the scene was about her wanting to make him feel better about himself after Frank was ribbing him, but you could hear the lust in her voice.
another time she was going on and on about how if she were 30 years younger and Ray wasn't her son (fill in the blanks).. if I didn't know any better, I'd swear Marie's panties were a little damp.
and then in the series finale, she finally got what she wanted.. using Ray's "near death" as an excuse to pounce on him and molest him in bed while wearing her red satin jammies.. it almost makes sense to change the title of the show to Marie Wants To Have Sex With Raymond
Welcome to the El Flamingo, Jeffrey!
Don't piss in the pool, Jeffrey. -
BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon — 9 years ago(May 03, 2016 12:02 AM)
and then in the series finale, she finally got what she wanted.. using Ray's "near death" as an excuse to pounce on him and molest him in bed while wearing her red satin jammies..
it almost makes sense to change the title of the show to Marie Wants To Have Sex With Raymond
LOL! Totally agree! -
SkiesAreBlue — 9 years ago(May 04, 2016 04:33 AM)
Good grief people, it's a sit-com. Situation comedy, in caps if you didn't know. When did it become a Sigmand Froid, mother Oedipus situation? If you want to delve into such a series, watch The Borgias". Marie is the epitome of a controlling Mumma, be it Catholic, Jewish, Muslum or Protestant. We all have a "Marie" in our lives. Mine favoured the second son and DIL, my husband was so like his mother in personality they clashed and I bore the brunt if it. Otherwise shall we go back to Frank wanting to smell the twins all the time. "Ah the fountaine of youth" really? I could have a problem with that.
SkiesAreBlue -
jezfernandez — 9 years ago(May 30, 2016 09:36 AM)
Lots of comments on this one. I know why you've raised this, because there are times when Marie's motherly adoration goes a shade too far. I'm thinking of the one where Ray blurts out that what he really wants from Debra is mothering. Someone (probably Robert) says, "Are you saying you wish you'd marry mom?" and Marie's face is a picture of pure delight! Hilarious at the end when Robert brings Ray that cardboard bride with Marie's face pasted on!
There was also the one where Ally's friend's mother slaps Ray's butt and the whole "she hit on me" thing comes up. I think that's the one where Marie's sitting at the table with Ray and goes on about how natural it is for women to find him attractive, especially when he wears tight jeans!
Of course, I agree with other posters that this is just an exaggeration of the doting Italian mother (though I've never been sure why Robert is like the invisible son to her). Also, Marie doesn't hate Debra - there are lots of episodes where you see genuine love and affection from her. Again, it's all exaggeration for the sake of comedy. -
JosephASpadaro — 9 years ago(May 30, 2016 10:46 AM)
Exactly.
The writers take a "normal" situation. They exaggerate it a thousand times over what it really is. And that formula equals "funny".
And that is their goal: humor and funny. Their goal is not to depict realistic situations. If they did, we'd have either a run-of-the-mill documentary. Or a very un-funny sitcom that would get cancelled very quickly. -
Jupiter555555 — 9 years ago(May 30, 2016 01:48 PM)
So you admit that they are "exaggerating" somethingbut that something must still exist in the narrative in order for it to be exaggerated. The sexual friction between mother and son might be exaggerated, but it exists.. otherwise you can't use the word "exaggerate", as they would just be tossing something random into the mix and that is not what you have proposed since the beginning of this debate.
Don't doubt for a second that I, too, find this repulsive from the outset. I don't want to think this or like thinking it (much like Angelina Jolie making out with her brother, gag!), but I can't deny it because it's not something that's pleasant to ponder. -
JosephASpadaro — 9 years ago(May 30, 2016 08:53 PM)
So you admit that they are "exaggerating" somethingbut that something must still exist in the narrative in order for it to be exaggerated. The sexual friction between mother and son might be exaggerated, but it exists.
No. You are completely wrong. And I never said/admitted that.
The "normal situation" is the normal affection between a mother and a son. A mother who dotes on her son and "babies" and pampers him. Even when he is an adult, in his 40's. And a son who basks in that special treatment. That is the "normal" situation.
The exaggeration is when
that
(the normal situation described above) gets extended to imply an element of sexuality or of incestuousness.
It is the relationship/affection that is exaggerated. It is not the sex or incest (already present, as you theorize) that then gets exaggerated. No, not at all. -
BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon — 9 years ago(June 01, 2016 11:38 PM)
there are times when Marie's motherly adoration goes a shade too far. I'm thinking of the one where Ray blurts out that what he really wants from Debra is mothering. Someone (probably Robert) says, "Are you saying you wish you'd marry mom?" and Marie's face is a picture of pure delight!
I
pointed that out in one of my previous posts. Can't you read? -
BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon — 9 years ago(July 24, 2016 11:06 PM)
I just last night saw the episode "Sleepover at Peggy's" in which Peggy pats Ray on the ass when he goes to drop Ally off at Peggy and her daughter's place. In the last scene of the episode, Marie has found out what happened and Ray is trying to explain that Peggy was NOT coming on to him and Marie actually says to Ray's face "How is that possible? Everything about your look and the way you move could drive a woman crazy!"
WHAT!
WHAT!!
WHAAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!
Even if everything else in the other episodes discussed in previous posts were somehow accidental, Phil Rosenthal and the writers
had
to have been deliberately trying to convey that Marie was in lust with Ray in the scene in question.