Scientists claim the bacteria that is destroying the wreck has now evolved and has increased the rate of damage. They e
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palisade-1 — 9 years ago(September 09, 2016 12:10 PM)
They estimate the wreck will have "dissolved" in 14 years. Do you believe it?
I don't think it's a matter for "belief," it's an empirical question. There's strong evidence that the
Titanic
wreck will eventually collapse upon itself due to the disintegration of its iron and steel precipitated by the bacterial action. As it does so, the interior areas where the wood is still intact due to anoxic conditions will be exposed to higher oxygen levels and to more varied sea life, and will also be destroyed. Glass, ceramic, porcelain may remain forever. "Dissolve" is probably the wrong word to describe the process, but this is a newspaper piece, not a scientific treatise.
However, just as big a threat to the wreck is the inexorable action of the undersea moving sand dunes. I believe it was the WHOI scientists who first noted, and then tracked the movement of, a line of wavelike sand dunes moving slowly but surely towards the
Titanic
. They have an estimate of how many years that will take, but I don't recall what it is. It may be that the
Titanic
will be buried by the currents of the deep sea
before
the bacteria have their way with it.
The sand dunes are pictured in this documentary (start at 1:15:35)
More info can be found here:
http://hubpages.com/education/The-Geology-of-The-Titanic-Shipwreck-Site
There are good illustrations here. Here's a quote:
This region off the Grand Banks beyond the continental shelf is a very sandy region since these high velocity currents move large quantities of sedimentation along the ocean floor. These high velocity currents have created other geological features near the Titanic shipwreck. There are debris, slumps, barchan dunes, sand ribbons and sheets, and mud waves in the area. In time all traces of the Titanic will be buried by tons of sediments moving through the canyon two and half miles down.
I doubt if anyone knows exactly how long either eventuality will take; what is certain is that the
Titanic
will eventually be one with the ocean floor. -
Jazzomaniac — 9 years ago(September 09, 2016 02:49 PM)
Salvagers are not allowed to recover any artefacts from inside the wreck, but if it collapses does that mean they will try to recover as much as possible? One of the main reasons why they were not allowed was that salvaging the inside could damage the wreck, but since they know it is going to collapse any way I wonder if they will take advantage of this moment in time and recover the most historic artefacts inside before it collapses?
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Jazzomaniac — 9 years ago(September 09, 2016 03:53 PM)
Illustration of the wreck in the future (change the year to 2030):
http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6a56xfB4l1ql9hvko6_1280.jpg -
mcdemuth — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 08:56 PM)
I am not so sure, if not being able to salvage anything, has anything to do with preventing "damage to the wreck"
James Cameron has sent ROVs inside the wreck to film it, and has bumped into things, and even had an ROV fail and float to the ceiling, and then had to use another ROV to haul it back out The dead one got snagged on something during the retrieval, and they had to jar it free with the second to get it out
Then there are the other mother subs that touch down on the deck to do whatever it is that they are trying to do.
Banging the ROVs, and Mother subs into the ship, seems more destructive, than salvaging a clock off of a mantle. I am surprised the ship has not already collapsed
However, whether exploring the inside ship, or salvaging items from inside the ship, going inside seems risky either way
The inside of the ship is quite a mess, and, for the most part, it really doesn't look anything like it did in 1912 or how it looked on the blueprints. It is a wonder that anyone can figure out where they are going without crashing into walls and I was actually surprised that James Cameron was able to find the Turkish Bath, and get an ROV into the room.
It was spectacular to see the how the blue paint on the tile work, amongst all that muck, in the Turkish Bath. It still looked very colorful and was in great condition.
Even though it was extremely dangerous, I am glad James Cameron did risk it, as it is great for archaeologists to see how some things in the ship survived the collision with the sea bed, and how some things have lasted so well being submerged for so long. That famous clock, that James Cameron recreated for the movie, was still sitting on the mantle and looked pretty much like it did in 1912. Amazing.
I'm torn between investigating the ship, and leaving it alone. 5 or 10 years more of the physical life of the ship, is not much in the grand scheme of things
But, I think, Since it seems it will be "gone" very soon, no matter what Then I think I would have to choose, that we should investigate it while we can, so there will be a visual record of it, which generations from now will be able to see, before it becomes just some "heap" sitting on the ocean floor, that you can't do anything with -
palisade-1 — 9 years ago(September 10, 2016 01:54 PM)
Salvagers are not allowed to recover any artefacts from inside the wreck, but if it collapses does that mean they will try to recover as much as possible? One of the main reasons why they were not allowed was that salvaging the inside could damage the wreck
Under most international laws, nothing can be removed from the interior of protected wrecks, not solely (or even chiefly) because doing so might damage the wreck, but because the wrecks are also considered gravesites. It is possible, though not likely, that human remains could still be inside the
Titanic
if there are sealed areas where no oxygenated water has penetrated.
The salvagers would have to go back to court and get an order changing terms of their mandate. I don't know how likely that would be. Even so, they don't have the equipment to remove much of anything from the interior of the ship; the ROV's can only pick up small objects.
When a wreck is entirely within a country's domestic waters, the same rules don't necessarily apply. For example, for many years it was permitted to retrieve items from the
Empress of Ireland
, sunk in 1914 in Canadian waters with the loss of more passenger lives than the
Titanic
disaster. The laws were changed about 15 years ago, and that wreck is protected now. One of the ships of Sir John Franklin's doomed search for the Northwest Passage in 1845 was found in 2014; not salvagers, but archeologists, are planning to send ROV's into that ship to learn what they can about the tragedy. Even paper documents can be preserved in the cold conditions where the
HMS Erebus
sank, west of King William Island in the Arctic archipelago.
Here's a recent update on the search for its companion ship,
HMS Terror
, and the exploration of the
Erebus.
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/archaeologists-resume-search-sir-john-franklins-hms-terror
The story of the Franklin expedition is as compelling a story as that of
Titanic
, though in different ways. -
Jazzomaniac — 9 years ago(September 10, 2016 04:43 PM)
Thanks. Very interesting. I was going to get a train down to the Old Head of Kinsale for the centenary of the Lusitania sinking last year. They were going to raise the whistle from the wreck and blow the whistle at the moment she sank. Sadly due to some legal ruling they were unable to retrieve it, so I ended up not going. Would have been quite an event if they had managed to get the whistle. Wonder if it sounded like her sister the Aquitania?
Aquitania whistle -
palisade-1 — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 04:33 PM)
Thanks. Very interesting
Talk about synchronicity. No sooner do I mention the search for the
HMS Terror
, than the announcement comes that the wreck has been found and is in excellent condition.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/12/hms-terror-wreck-found-arctic-nearly-170-years-northwest-passage-attempt
I saw a brief video but the water was so murky it was hard to make out what is what. The article above has the best overall info so far. Notably it leaves out the disturbing (but not surprising) fact that many of the last survivors of the Franklin expedition resorted to anthropophagy in their last days.
EDITED TO ADD:
Some may be interested in the nautical details of these ships. There's a brief summary here:
http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica fact file/History/antarctic_ships/erebus_terror_antarctica.php
The
HMS Terror
is of significance to Americans, too. It participated in the shelling of Fort McHenry in the War of 1812, the event which inspired Francis Scott Key to write "The Star Spangled Banner." -
bobbiekaye69 — 9 years ago(September 13, 2016 03:01 PM)
I don't know about 14 years, but the wreck is certainly deteriorating.
I think they should bring up whatever they possibly can. Sending ROVs into the ship isn't going to hurt it, since it's going to collapse anyway.
If there were any human remains in the ship, they were consumed by bacteria decades ago. It's not a graveyard by any stretch of the imagination.
I saw a display that included many recovered artifacts, as well as a large piece of Titanic's hull that had been brought up and preserved. They should do that with as much of the ship as they possibly can. Leaving it down there does no one any good.
I don't believe that shows any disrespect to those who perished in the tragedy.
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good. -
lrdcharlton — 9 years ago(September 13, 2016 07:58 PM)
Actually, it is figurituvly and literally a gravesite. Just because you can't see the remains of the those wh died does not mean that it is no longer their resting place. What you suggest is somewhat disrespectful towards those who lost their lives and the survivors that believe it should be left alone. I can accept that they brought up artifacts and and a few parts of the ship, however, it should be left alone.
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bobbiekaye69 — 9 years ago(September 13, 2016 08:18 PM)
I don't understand what is accomplished by leaving it alone. There are many things of interest that might be enjoyed by the living.
It's not unlike opening Tutankhamen's tomb. Leaving it untouched doesn't help anybody, including Tutankhamen. Let the living enjoy, and learn.
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good. -
Jazzomaniac — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 04:02 AM)
According to the Postal Museum website the Titanic (Royal mail steamer) was carrying over 3,000 sacks of mail with up to 9 million individual pieces of mail and up to 800 parcels. Exploration has shown that the mail sacks are still down there! The sack material has preserved the contents of all 3,000+ sacks. The question remains, should the mail be recovered?
The website said the following:
CAN TITANICS MAIL BE DELIVERED?
'The recovery of paper bank notes from the Titanic wreck site in 1987 raised the possibility that some of the ships mail may one day be salvaged. Letters and newspapers may have survived for a century in the dark and chilly waters of the North Atlantic.'
'The sanctuary principle, endorsed by the Smithsonian Institution, embraces the hope that Titanics wreck site will be preserved in undisturbed condition as a memorial to those who perished. Her mail, however, may be one exception to the sanctuary principle.'
'The delivery of mail is the obligation of the postal system to which it was entrusted. Should any mail sacks ever be salvaged, the Royal Mail or United States Postal Service
could take steps to recover and deliver the mail
. What to do with any mail that might be brought up from the ship is certain to raise many intricate legal questions. Distribution of Titanics mail a century after it sank would be extremely complicated and require a great deal of dead-letter detective work.' -
palisade-1 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 07:46 AM)
'The delivery of mail is the obligation of the postal system to which it was entrusted. Should any mail sacks ever be salvaged, the Royal Mail or United States Postal Service could take steps to recover and deliver the mail.
Recovering the sacks, which are very heavy, would be a major effort, requiring the use of explosives to blast open the hold. Even then, it might be impossible to move them with the technology we have now. They would have to be maneuvered onto the sea bed so that robotic arms could attach cables etc. to raise them, as they did the safe and other heavier items from the
Titanic
debris site.
The Royal Mail did (and still does, one presumes) take its responsibility seriously. After the sinking of the
RMS Empress of Ireland
in 1914, it wasted little time in recovering the mail sacks, the purser's safe and an undisclosed amount of silver bullion aboard. To do this, they had to blast the hold open with dynamite, and even then, the recovery was only possible because divers could reach the ship, which was in 80 feet of water. The divers manually attached ropes etc. to lift the heavy items. Even so, one diver was killed by the water pressure - at only 80 feet when his pressurized suit failed. Co-workers who went down to help found the diver was reduced to a jellified mass. So operations were very dangerous.
A propos
of the
Lusitania,
she too was carrying mail, and the British Admiralty apparently has forbidden any exploration of the interior, according to Dr. Robert Ballard, who did an external examination of the wreck. This is probably because, as we now know from classified documents recently uncovered, the Admiralty at the time knew that the U-20 was stalking the
Lusitania
(they had broken the German's U-boat code and could monitor all transmissions), and also knew it had been hit by only one torpedo. They withheld information on the U-20's movements from Captain Turner, and attempted deliberately but unsuccessfully to blame the tragedy on him. Churchill had said earlier he wanted a non-military vessel tragedy in order to provoke US entry into the war.
There are also unconfirmed reports that the
Lusitania
was carrying explosives (it's no secret it was carrying ammunition, but the ammunition was not sufficient to cause the powerful explosion that sank the ship so rapidly). So the government has its own reasons for not wanting the interior of the
Lusitania
to be examined. Ballard, being a U. S. Navy intelligence officer, was probably privy to these issues but deflected attention from them, speculating the coal dust in the storage bunkers caused the explosion (something that has never happened on any other ship, if indeed it happened here).
So the issue of getting large items from the interior of
Titanic
is not only one of legalities, but of actual technical possibility. The depth of the wreck, and the fact that many of the items that would be of greatest interest are deep inside, means that only a huge explosive event could smash the hull and open it to retrieval of items probably damaged from the sea bed. If any such attempts are made, I think they are far in the future.
NB: A very readable account of the
Lusitania
tragedy, with information on the covert operations (etc.) is Eric Larson's recent book,
Dead Wake: The Last Crossing of the Lusitania.
It's well-written and well-researched, though some of his conclusions are controversial. Many facts about the tragedy will probably never be known.
New York Times
review:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/books/review/erik-larsons-dead-wake-about-the-lusitania.html?_r=0
Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Wake-Last-Crossing-Lusitania-ebook/dp/B00N6PD3GE/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473863237&sr=1-1&keywords=dead+wake -
mcdemuth — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 08:59 AM)
When it comes to all these divers and salvagers
I don't think it is disrespectful for teams to
1.) Document the wreck, to investigate why and how it sank, research how something like a clock could remain on a fireplace mantle when it collided with the seabed, and how the environment is affecting the ship.
2.) Salvage items for the purpose of displaying them in museums to keep the memory of the tragedy in the minds of new generations, and educate everyone on what happened and why.
If a documentary company like National Geographic wants to sponsor expeditions to the wreck, with the overall purpose of doing documentation and research, and if they can make some money afterward with media rights for documentaries and so on, that's fine.
If after the expeditions return, if some museum decides to award a "finders fee" (which I have heard is something like 10%), to the team for the "few" random artifacts they recovered while they just happened to be down there, then I think is OK too.
But I do think it is disrespectful, when a group goes down there intentionally looking for "treasure", with the intent of bringing it back to the surface and selling it on the black market in hopes of becoming millionaires, and possibly all the while, showing no respect for the wreck itself, by damaging it. Now that is just plain wrong.
As for the mail, I am not sure if it would be worth the cost to recover any of it
Anyone who wrote the mail, or who it was supposed to be delivered to IS DEAD. Nothing that was written in that mail, unless it was a "post card" mailed on board the ship, would even involve the ship and the sinking It would be like reading the mail of somebody you never met before. Even if it was an ancestor. Most of what was said would not mean anything to you. And all that is assuming the mail is in pristine condition, and is readable.
I don't know why it should be done. What would be gained by recovering it?
If it were me, I wouldn't pay anyone to recover it. -
palisade-1 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 12:08 PM)
I don't think it is disrespectful for teams to
1.) Document the wreck, to investigate why and how it sank, research how something like a clock could remain on a fireplace mantle when it collided with the seabed, and how the environment is affecting the ship.
2.) Salvage items for the purpose of displaying them in museums to keep the memory of the tragedy in the minds of new generations, and educate everyone on what happened and why.
If a documentary company like National Geographic wants to sponsor expeditions to the wreck, with the overall purpose of doing documentation and research, and if they can make some money afterward with media rights for documentaries and so on, that's fine.
That kind of research such as what you suggest has been going on under the direction of RMS TItanic Inc. (the salvors in possession of the
Titanic
wreck site and the only ones entitled to remove anything from that site), in partnership with other organizations, including National Geographic, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute (WHOI), the Discovery Channel and the French organization IFREMER, among others.
The fees from the RMS Titanic Inc exhibits and exhibitions (which travel the world but have a home base in Las Vegas) go in part towards financing this research. They have so far been forbidden to sell artifacts (they do sell souvenir lumps of coal from the Titanic wreck site, which are apparently excluded from the category of artifact).
Removing items from the
interior
is a whole different story, not only legally (at present it is forbidden) but technically. Cameron had enough trouble getting his little bots out of there, let along dragging or trying to carry clocks and artifacts, which the little robots can't do. They have been painstakingly documenting both the entire debris field of the ship and the interior parts that can be reached and filmed.
So most of what you would like to see (that is within the realm of the possible at this time) is being done.
