This part never made any sense to me, how was he recognized by the other guests at the party?
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Oldguy69 — 9 years ago(December 21, 2016 01:38 PM)
I'm not sure how that relates to my post since I simply suggest that he was recognized because he (Bill) was the one who made it all up in his head just like in the novel on which the film is based "Dream novel".
If it's all in his mind, then everyone at the party will know who he is - mask or no mask.
But if you wanna find a possible rat, then try having a look at Ziegler when he walks in a circle around the red pool table while intimidating bill. Compare that to the ritual scene where the leader walks around in a circle wearing a red cape. -
meemee_7 — 9 years ago(January 02, 2017 05:44 PM)
If you think of the orgy as a thematic reviewing of the first party at Ziegler house, albeit one stripped of its facade to reveal the truth about the guests, then it makes sense that Bill would be recognized and acknowledged by, I presume, Ziegler and his wife: they are his hosts after all.
"if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!"
Roy Batty -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 9 years ago(January 02, 2017 05:49 PM)
Good point meemee, but Ziegler is also a guest at the second one - taking a step up the social ladder just as Bill was at Ziegler's.
Plus, Nick (Bill actually) made Victor look like an beep
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
meemee_7 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 07:03 AM)
Really, I think whether or not Ziegler is a host or a guest at these functions is irrelevant. He is Bill's sponsor or patronthe only one among the so-called elites who recognizes Bill, literally and metaphorically. You recall Bill telling Alice he doesn't know a soul at the first party.
The two parties are really only one party, and the party is really a metaphor for society, or the class system, the upper reaches of which have only one person who Bill knows who likewise knows Bill.
I have no doubt that Ziegler is not at the tippity-top of the social stratathere's always another rung to climb.
But I think the real purpose of Ziegler pointing out that Nick, and by extension Bill, made him look like an ____, is to merely serve as a mirror to the earlier exchange between them regarding Mandy's illness. That Bill, or whoever that may be privy to Zieglers embarrassments, has the
potential
to make Ziegler look like an ___. That these things must be kept "just between us." The second exchange is the same as the first. But like the second party is merely the first stripped of all pretentious, so goes this second exchange. These things must be kept "just between us
or else
."
"if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!"
Roy Batty -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 03:16 PM)
I agree with most of that. Notice that Milich's store is like a connection point between the two parties, as far as mise-en-scene goes.
So the point being that the veil of the upper class is basically a facade that actually facilitates their nihilistic hedonism. The whole illusion survives because of the envy of the lower class, proping it up ala sevant and master. Willing servant, thus one of the moments that was censored originally with the servant on all fours and the party goers (prostitutes?) banging on his back. Servant with a black mask.
Kubrick is also mirroing this in an uncanny way via the audiences expectations of seeing Nicole and Tom naked and having sex. It's funny that so many people come away from this disappointed, not realising they are mirroring Bill's sexual frustrations and voyueristic experience.
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
meemee_7 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 04:19 PM)
I remember one of the things that struck me about the film upon initial viewing was the way people kept repeating themselves, or repeating what was said to them, e.g., Domino says, "What do you want to do?" and Bill replies, "What do I want to do? Hmmm." Or Red Cloak says, "Remove your clothing!" and Bill answers, "Remove my clothing??"
That led me to see what else was repeating, visually, thematically, etc. and I saw that the entire film was one story told twiceone version all lights and happiness, the other all dark and creepy. Probably neither version is "true"things are really somewhere in the middle for the Dr. Bills of the world.
There are perhaps not really these strange, ritualistic orgies of debauched flesh and unbridled greed going on, but neither are the super wealthy your friends. Chances are coming into contact with such people leads to unhappiness, and your best defense against abuse is to be as honest and open with your real friends - with yourself - as you can.
"if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!"
Roy Batty -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 06:33 PM)
It is very much a contemplation on the relationship between fulfillment and wealth, and how relationships (sexual, non sexual) factor into various motivations. It does very much advocate honesty, as you suggest, and employs Ziegler as a kind of paradox to Bill: the happy go lucky liar and maybe murderer. A symbol of the New York/U.S/World elite that clearly disgusted Kubrick. And then Kubrick looked at the layers of envy and emulation, ultimately coming around to the audience with a challenge by way of the film's title.
Kubrick's most dense and satisfying film, after initially appearing to be the opposite for most people upon first viewing. Multiple viewings are required.
The plot cannot be untangled from the themes and subtext and even the form itself, so people looking for surface level narrative answers won't be satisfied - you have to incorporate film language into your understanding of the film, or you will be as lost as Bill, trapped behind bars, looking into mirrors..
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
meemee_7 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 07:17 PM)
It is very much a contemplation on the relationship between fulfillment and wealth, and how relationships (sexual, non sexual) factor into various motivations.
Can you elaborate on this?
"if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!"
Roy Batty -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 10:05 PM)
Alice, Domino, Sally, Marion, Lolita and Mandy. The relationship between those characters and all the men in the fim. I'll leave it at that for now. A. Because we are way off topic and B. It's been covered in other threads.
Suffice to say: it is about
service
.
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
Belle2Ca — 2 years ago(February 23, 2024 12:32 AM)
I honestly think it's because Bill's wife Alice was part of cult and set that whole night up to test Bill and see how far he would go. I know it's been talked about before on other threads but it does make sense to me.
If you remember, Alice was mainly the one who started with the flirting and trying to temp men at the Christmas party.
Did anyone else also notice how that hooker Domino knew Bill's last name? He never told her his name!!!
The mask is missing out of his costume when he clearly put it back with the rest of the costume in the bag. Looks as though Alice had taken it put it on the bed near the end of the film , but strange that she wouldn't just confront him about it right away if she found the costume and didn't seam worried about it before?
Also, when Bill comes home after the party that night and walks in the bedroom , Alice is in bed laughing supposedly having that sex dream… but if you look closely it seams that her eyes are open just before she starts laughing. Then like 2 seconds later when she wakes up she all of a sudden seams terrified of the dream she had.
If you notice the daughter Helena also has the exact same hair color as Mandy and Domino and there are many symbols throughout the story as well…and it really comes across like they are trying to show off the way Alice is brushing her daughter's hair and the how much the little girl loves to shows off her Barbie doll, it really seams to symbolizing something like maybe Alice is trying to prepare her daughter for the lifestyle as well?
I really think Alice played a part in the night.