Disclaimer, I'm not saying it's not.
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Eyes Wide Shut
nlagoon — 10 years ago(December 08, 2015 09:44 AM)
Disclaimer, I'm not saying it's not.
But I find it interesting that, even as attitudes towards sex grow increasingly liberalized, most people's gut reaction to a secret society which gathers for group sex is revulsion.
Why does this film provoke such an intense psychological reaction in a time when so many argue that
all
sexual practices should be accommodated and are inherently harmless?
Additionally why does the implication that those at the orgy are the powerful in society seem to magnify peoples' disturbed and angry feelings? Do people expect the powerful in society to be held to a different standard than the rest of us, or to be more moral? I doubt a suburban swingers party would incite the same reaction, but isn't it really the same thing? -
Fandango137 — 10 years ago(December 09, 2015 01:39 AM)
For me, the entire tone and atmosphere of the scene does not give off the impression that this is just another sex party. When viewers see the scene, they envision off-screen complete uninhibited debauchery taking place. The only three terrifying sexual modalities that can take place at this party, and this is the reason the scene can be so scary, is pedophilia, incest, and rape. The even bigger implication is that all three are taking place.
When the viewer finds out that the party is actually run by an elite, it compounds the fear by cementing the notion that now these acts have actually taken place. If we think of elite, we think omnipotence; therefore, if an omnipotent society gathers up for surreptitious sex parties, then surely any and all depraved acts that they want to have happen will happen. -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 10 years ago(December 09, 2015 07:39 AM)
The man that nods at Bill is wearing a mask that another person is wearing on the ground level. One of them offers up a woman to Bill and he seems about to engage when a masked woman interrupts, presumably Mandy. The woman that was offered up to Bill is later seen next the white face mask man wearing a hood when Bill is asked to remove his mask and clothes. Some of the masks seem to be related, as though indicating factions or groups within the larger whole.
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clocksnmirrors-932-761321 — 10 years ago(December 12, 2015 10:09 AM)
People who claim to find this disturbing are sure to be in the minority. This film was not a blockbuster. If a wider audience had actually viewed it I wager most people would have simply found the scene boring and disappointing.
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Silent_Bob01 — 10 years ago(December 12, 2015 11:10 PM)
I completely disagree. What makes the scene disturbing isn't the nudity or the sex. In the age of the internet, it takes WAY more to shock most people nowadays.
No, what's disturbing is the idea that the richest and most powerful elite in America are hedonistic sociopaths who practice odd, quasi-Satanic rituals, and who have accumulated such vast wealth and privilege that the rules of society simply no longer apply to them.
I'm not an Alex Jones-style paranoiac by any means, but if you read up on super-elite, secretive organizations like the Bohemian Grove (a secluded Northern California resort where the most powerful men in America gather annually to perform weird pagan plays and actually burn a wicker man in effigy), Skull and Bones (a secret Yale society to which BOTH George W. Bush and John Kerry belonged), the Bilderberg group, etc
Well, it's all VERY off-putting. The basic idea is that these super-elite practice intimate rituals like sex orgies and other extreme, fraternity-style hazing in an effort to extract as many embarrassing personal details from each other as possible to use as blackmail evidence. This is their insurance policy for keeping everyone in line should one of them ever develop a conscience.
Againthis is all conjecture and admittedly conspiratorial, but that's what makes the scene so disturbing to me. -
klondike99 — 10 years ago(December 14, 2015 12:37 AM)
Its disturbing in how unsexy it is. As if Kubrick was making an anti sex statement. I'm as horny as they come but I fast forwarded through the ridiculous walk through orgy scenes on second viewing. I couldn't stand how boring and cold it all was.
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dirtbunny199 — 9 years ago(November 16, 2016 09:54 AM)
Its disturbing in how unsexy it is. As if Kubrick was making an anti sex statement. I'm as horny as they come but I fast forwarded through the ridiculous walk through orgy scenes on second viewing. I couldn't stand how boring and cold it all was.
Agreed. Unsexy is the best word to describe the weaka$$ sex scenes for the big sex party in the mansion. Creepy is a good way to describe the onlookers. -
clocksnmirrors-932-761321 — 10 years ago(December 15, 2015 12:19 AM)
I see what you're saying.
Perhaps I take it as a foregone conclusion that these are the sort of people who are remorseless, without conscience and capable of anything. Perhaps that's why I found bland depiction to be not at all disturbing.
The real horrors are to be found in industrial slavery and industrial poisoning and industrial depletion of natural resources etc.
But boring sex? meh. -
Silent_Bob01 — 10 years ago(December 15, 2015 11:21 AM)
True, but again, it's not the sexit's the wider implications of what these weird occult orgies that the richest and most powerful people in America hold for themselves represent.
And rememberMandy and Nightengale were both almost certainly murdered by this group (and Bill would have been as well), and Helena appeared to be abducted at the conclusion of the film by two of the men at Ziegler's Christmas party, so it's not just a harmless case of group sex. -
clocksnmirrors-932-761321 — 10 years ago(December 15, 2015 12:34 PM)
I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't change my impression of the character of the scene.
As I indicated before, people like this would allow children to consume contaminated formula. What's a little murder to someone like that? For me it all fits together in a way that's fails to raise an eyebrow.
Now if they had incorporated ritual murder into the sex act, maybe that would have evoked some sense of outrage. -
jmbwithcats — 10 years ago(December 27, 2015 03:46 PM)
"And Helena appeared to be abducted at the conclusion of the film by two of the men at Ziegler's Christmas party"
Where did you see that? At the end of the movie, Helena is walking around the toystore, and Tom/Nicole have a final dialog, and that's it
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Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 10 years ago(December 29, 2015 03:54 AM)
Most of us agree she disappears with two old farts who were at the first Xmas party. A young fella follows them who really looks like one of the servants at the Xmas party as well. Given the events of the last few days, that Bill would let his daughter out of his sight for a second says a lot.
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jmbwithcats — 10 years ago(December 29, 2015 04:15 AM)
I agree it says a lot and being we don't see her in the end I think is also very telling
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christomacin — 9 years ago(April 11, 2016 09:22 PM)
Where did you see that? At the end of the movie, Helena is walking around the toystore, and Tom/Nicole have a final dialog, and that's it
I think it's a huge stretch to claim that Helena is
literally
abducted by the bald-headed men, not to say that the cult weren't capable of it but in terms of what is shown in the movie. I don't think it happens, and I feel that's taking the story way too literally. However, I do believe Kubrick may have been up to his usual tricks in that scene, which I'll attempt to break down my thoughts concerning:
Points Favoring Abduction
:- It is true is that there are two bald-headed men at Ziegler's Christmas party. Bill is stalked by a bald-headed man after the orgy. A bald-headed man hands Bill a threatening note at the gate of Somerton Mansion. Finally, there are two bald-headed men resembling the two at Christmas party at the toy store at the end. For conspiracy buffs, this could point to a recessive baldness gene due to genetic bloodline interbreeding, a reference to very old and wealthy families throughout the world. For the rest of us, they simply stand in for rich old men. Anyway, the two chrome domes are seen walking away and Helena is also seen walking away from Bill and Alice in the same general direction. The couple do not notice her as they are wrapped up in deep discussion. We never see Helena again as the film ends.
- Helena is close to Helen, which could be a reference to Helen of Troy from Homer's
The Iliad
. Furthermore, Ziegler's wife is named Ilena (a derivation of Helen). In the story of
The Iliad
, Helen, the wife of Menelaus, is abducted (or goes willingly, depending on how you read it) by the Trojan prince named Paris. In some versions of the story Helen is forcibly abducted and presumably raped by Paris, in other versions she goes willingly and becomes the lover of Paris. What I'm saying is there is a certain ambiguity as to her character. Needless to say, this could parallel Alice's recounting of her fantasy of running of with the naval officer.
Points Against Abduction
:
It's not true at all
: For would-be kidnappers, the bald-headed men are exceptionally slack at their jobs. They are intently looking at some toys and never once glance at the Harfords, looking for all the world like holiday shoppers. More to the point, they turn and begin walking away
in front of
Alice. They are
NOT
following her at any point, or indeed even looking at her. For her part, Helena does not seem to notice them either as she walks away. For some people, this will end the speculation once and for all.
2)
It's true, but only on the level of metaphor
: The possible
Iliad
reference could point more to a metaphoric "abduction" or "seduction" by wealthy men, the patriarchy being symbolically represented by older bald-headed men. The fact that the names Helen and Ilena are so similar gives rise to the idea that whatever "abduction" we may or may not be seeing is metaphorical, not real, as she symbolically "follows after them". The name of Ziegler's wife could be Kubrick's way of suggesting Helena is destined to become a trophy wife for some wealthy man in the future, just as Ilena currently is for Ziegler. Like her mother, Helen is portrayed as possessing a dual nature. Indeed, when we first see Helena she is dressed as an Angel. On the other hand, her name is Helena, which as relates to the Homeric Helena who was an adulterer and ran off with Paris. We clearly see her mother Alice grooming her for such a wealthy husband in several dialog exchanges. Being practiced in the art of deception and duality begins in childhood.