The plot hole in Roger's floor
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Training Day
brett-39-479061 — 13 years ago(July 11, 2012 06:37 PM)
Well I think everyone gave me good answers about my earlier question about the robbing/killing of Roger
http://www.imdb.com/board/10139654/board/thread/194725496
But watching the scene again has made me think of another question.
Would Alonso and his crew even get away with their actions?
See, on paper, their "official" mission is to thoroughly search Roger's home, tearing up the floors if need be, and possibly arrest Roger. That's what they have the warrant for, and it's why they have pickaxes, shovels and a chainsaw. And remember, they didn't secretly buy those tools from the Home Depot or something. Alonso had his boys specifically sign them out from the police department. So between the warrant and the signing out of the tools, there is a paper trail that says Alonso and his crew intended to tear Roger's house apart in search of something (drugs, money, weapons, whatever)
Now the "official" mission would've gone out the window the moment (according to their made up story) Roger opened fire on the cop and Jake killed Roger. Now it has escalated to an attempted cop killing and a police shooting. Within minutes of Alonso's team calling in the shooting, the place is crawling with cops, investigators and whatnot.
And these investigators are going to find a gaping hole in Roger's kitchen floor, quite possibly with the police shovels and picks right there.
So this means that in the minutes after a cop was shot and left bleeding and needing medical attention, Alonso's crew went back to the original mission and excavated an entire kitchen floor, finding nothing in the process (since we know they didn't turn in the money), instead of tending to the murder scene.
What investigator/internal affairs officer is not going to see through this?
Now Alonso & Co. could say that the hole was there when they arrived, but who's going to believe that when they made it known that they were going to the house to dig that hole in hopes of finding money?
Basically, in an attempt to make everything seem by the book, they created a story you'd have to be stupid to believe. -
nicci212000 — 13 years ago(July 11, 2012 07:31 PM)
Brett-
You're right they did check out axes, shovels, and a chainsaw from the Narc unit. This was done(along with the warrant)to make the drug bust official. This was my clue that Alonzo did turn in some of the money. Alonzo only needed one million for the Russians, and probably kept some on the side for himself. The movie didn't tell us that he kept some for himself, but common sense will tell you that he did. $4 mill is a lot of money! Once he divided up some for the crew I always assumed that he did infact turn some of the money in since it was official police business. It was obvious to me that he did since the wise men and the Narc unit knew Roger was a big time dealer that had money.
Roger allowed himself to get close to Alonzo thinking he was a friend. Alonzo did this to know the ins and outs of Roger's business. Remember Denzel told Jake that he had watched Roger operate with immunity for years. I'm sure Alonzo never let his superiors know just how much money Roger may have had. He would be smart to keep that info to himself for his future benefit. The wise men and superiors probably had no idea how much Roger had. So, as long as Alonzo turned in a reasonable amount of money he was good. The movie did not tell us one way or another about Alonzo turning in some of the money for his investigation. But, just like I used my common sense to assume that dirty Alonzo kept money on the side for himself, I also used that same sense to assume that he did turn in some money. He had made it official so he had to. Other wise, the ending wouldn't make much sense. The hole in the floor is not a plot hole unless you choose to believe that Alonzo told the all the investigators, wise men, etc that there was nothing there. How ever, the movie never stated that this is what Alonzo said. -
brett-39-479061 — 13 years ago(July 11, 2012 08:35 PM)
Yes, but again, it still doesn't match up. The "official" story they are giving is that they got to the house, kicked in the door, causing Roger to shoot the first cop through the door twice, which in turn causes newbie Jake to shoot Roger dead and Alonso to call in an "officer down" distress call. That's the story all of Alsono's boys are giving, and it's the story they coerce Jake into go along with. But that story doesn't give them
time
to excavate the kitchen (their story takes literally seconds to transpire, and mere minutes for the police to respond to the "officer down" call) nor a
reason
to excavate the kitchen (the cop getting shot would become priority). The only way around that is to deny they did anything to the floor, that it was like that when they got there, which is tough to do when you formally sign out pickaxes and shovels to do it, and have those tools right there.
Put another way
INVESTIGATOR: Why is there this huge hole in the kitchen floor?
ALONSO: We dug that. We were here on a search warrant, with reason to believe he had drug money stashed under the floor. Here, we found um $500,000. Honest. We even signed out the shovels.
INVESTIGATOR: I see, and when did you dig that hole?
ALONSO: Ummmm
INVESTIGATOR: Not before the shooting, right? Because your team just arrived at the house and kicked in the door. That's what all of your men said.
ALONSO: Right. We did it after
INVESTIGATOR: So while one of your men was bleeding out on the floor, you dug a hole, and finished it within the five or ten minutes it took for us to arrive?
See what I mean? Alonso should never have signed out the tools, as it makes their story impossible to believe. -
nicci212000 — 13 years ago(July 11, 2012 09:02 PM)
Yes, I understand the point you are making here. My last post got kind of lengthy, and I forgot to address this part. The officer was just supposed to be shot at with the vest catching the bullet. They were suppose to go on with the drug raid/digging as planned since the officer didn't actually get hurt. "Roger opened fire on them, but didn't actually hurt anyone b/c they took him out as he was firing". Alonzo's version of what happened would work this way. One of the bullets went through, but Alonzo's story still works. Just because one man got shot does not mean the drug bust must come to a complete hault. One man was down, they called for an ambulance, and the others went on investigating the scene/digging. It didn't take them long to dig up the money. The story still works.
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brett-39-479061 — 13 years ago(July 12, 2012 05:18 AM)
But the officer DID get hurt. The second bullet went through the vest. A deviation from Alonso's plan, and one that should've changed their priorities if they wanted to appear honest.
I disagree that they would've had time to dig the hole. About three and a half minutes go by between Dr. Dre's character making the "officer down" call and we hear the approaching sirens a reasonable response time for an "officer down" call. In between, there are no cutaways or anything to suggest the scene between Alonso and Jake isn't taking place in real-time. So they had three and a half minutes to dig the hole.
The actual hole digging scene does have cuts to indicate the passage of time. We see Alonso show them where to dig, which cuts to the chainsaw first penetrating the floor, which cuts to his men digging inside a waist-deep hole. Besides, common sense tells me this would take time, much more time than they had after the "officer down" call. -
nicci212000 — 13 years ago(July 12, 2012 07:37 AM)
"But the officer DID get hurt. The second bullet went through the vest. A deviation from Alonso's plan"
^Yes I know. This is exactly what I said. That is what I meant when I said one of the bullets went through, but Alonzo's story still works. Maybe I left out a few words and did not make myself clear. It was late last night, and I was getting ready for bed.
Since the bullet went through they did have to alter the story a bit, but not by much. In a drug raid(real or in a movie)the raid would not stop just because one police officer got shot. They still have a job to do. The police officer only got hit once and it didn't seem like the bullet hit a major organ initially, so he wasn't on the verge of death. I mean even if he was in a dire situation the raid would still continue. One officer would attend to the fallen officer, and the rest of the officers would proceed as planned. What are all the other officers going to do - stand around and watch the fallen officer?? No they would not. The priorities would not change. Alonzo, the crew, and the officer himself could even claim that they didn't even realize that one of the bullets penetrated the vest as was really the case in the movie. This would delay the officer down call. If they didn't claim that they didn't know the officer was hit at first, they could also just say that they knew he was hit once, but it wasn't life threatening so they went a head with the directions of the warrant/raid. Then the officer's situation escalated during the digging so they called an ambulance. How many times in movies have we seen a police officer get shot and keep going, shooting, fighting, and chasing criminals etc with out calling for an ambulance right away?
As for the time it took them to dig the hole, they didn't actually have to dig the whole per se. Roger had already done this when he hid the money. So it wouldn't be hard dirt/material that needed to be removed requiring a lot of man power and time. They just had to saw the floor and remove the settled dirt. It would take some time, but not an excessive amount of time. Maybe 15 mins real time, and 3 or 4 mins movie time. This would be about the same time it might take an ambulance to show up in LA given traffic etc. Alonzo(the producers' really)thought out the plan perfectly. The warrant, the officially signed out raid material(shovels etc), and the rookie taking out Roger all makes sense. I'm sorry. I just don't see a gaping plot hole in the movie in regards to Roger's floor, Alonzo's story that he would tell the investigators, and the money.
One thing that I didn't get a chance to mention in regards to the money. I think there were three guys in Alonzo's crew. It would be four including Jake. He offered the four of them $200 to $250,000 each. I can't remember the exact number, but it was one of these. I'll go with the higher number - $250,000. If they all took the money(we know that Jake didn't take a cut though)it would be $1 million dollars. Okay so that's 1 mill for the Russians, and 1 mill to pay off the guys for their help. That leaves 2 mill. He probably paid off the wise men some more, tied up loose ends for maybe other crooked judges/officials, and turned the rest of the money in. If Alonzo turned in 1 mill of the money to the Narc department they would probably be grateful and think he was an awesome Narc detective. That's why he was a decorated officer so to speak. IMO, the story was complete. -
The Shadow Sweeper — 13 years ago(August 23, 2012 05:04 PM)
If an internal investigation would be made based on inconsistencies, it wouldn't matter. By that time, Jake should have been whacked according to plan, Alonso would have paid off the Russians, Jake being the only one not corrupt on the team to go against anything they said would already be dead. Since it was Jake who supposedly killed Roger and Jake is now dead, most loose end would be tied up. Remember the main immediate motivation is for Alonso to pay off who he needs to stay alive. Everything else is secondary.
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baran_erik — 10 years ago(January 18, 2016 11:15 PM)
You ever dig a hole that deep? Not to mention getting through the floor and the floor joists first? Not gonna happen in 3:45. That's how long it was from the time they called in Officer Down to the end of the scene. And that's if they went straight to work after killing Roger. Not. Gonna. Happen. Plus, don't you think a trunk that was only 75% full would raise an eyebrow or two?
A huge, gaping maw of a plot hole. -
brett-39-479061 — 13 years ago(August 14, 2012 07:04 PM)
Hey Jimbo, no I thought about it after a number of viewings. My original thought (also posted somewhere on here) was that Hoyt was an unnecessary element in Alonso's plans. After hearing others argue against that idea, it made me examine the Roger scene further.
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Lance_Lives — 13 years ago(November 04, 2012 01:52 PM)
I hadn't seen this film in probably ten years but it was on the television today and I watched a good bit of it. I may be wrong, but I think I have the answer to this plot hole. Whenever Denzel is talking to someone on the phone before they go to Roger's house, he specifically says to sign out the shovels and picks for maintenance. Now, at least to me, if the police doesn't know that they actually used the shovels for it could look like the hole was already there when they arrived on the scene.
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brett-39-479061 — 13 years ago(November 04, 2012 02:01 PM)
But see, to me that doesn't make sense. If Denzel wanted to pretend the hole was already there, they could've picked up the picks and shovels from the local Home Depot or Lowes, and the police department would be none the wiser. But the fact that he stressed to his guys on the phone that they get the equipment from the department AND sign for it, that means he wanted it known that they intended to serve the warrant and dig up Roger's floor. And that's fine, as he wants everything to seem legit. What throws it all off is the shooting, and the story they give for how it occurs.
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Lance_Lives — 13 years ago(November 04, 2012 04:30 PM)
Yeah, I completely agree that the shooting throws it all off. I just noticed that he had said that about checking out the shovels and that's the only thing I could figure would at least kind of explain it.
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musicmaninmass — 11 years ago(December 08, 2014 07:58 PM)
No Alonzo says sign the tools out FROM maintenance. The point the movie is making is the whole system is corrupt. Alonzo's superiors knew what he was doing. He had to bribe a judge to get the warrant. So it doesn't matter what's at the crime scene or when they dug the hole. The whole investigation was going to be controled.
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riyaziq007 — 12 years ago(July 05, 2013 01:38 PM)
Alonso specifically tells someone on the phone that the tools should be signed out for "maintenance", not this raid. That begs another question to their official explanation: how did they get the tools to dig up the floor considering that they came only for a search/raid?
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ave_roma2004 — 11 years ago(December 09, 2014 08:34 PM)
It doesn't really matter who believes their story. This is the downfall of most criminals/cops/people like you - you crack.
Literally all they have to say is "we dug the hole before anyone got here".
It DOES NOT MATTER who believes them. There is ZERO EVIDENCE of a crime. Done. Over.
I can tell you that I sold several ounces of MDMA last year. That means nothing without evidence. IAB can't simply say "Welp, he's lying. Let's charge him". It never works that way.
I think a lot of folks around IMDB need to wise up a bit before making posts about things they know nothing about. -
pfgpowell-1 — 12 years ago(April 19, 2013 12:19 AM)
Bearing in mind that we are discussing a film rather than real life and in films everything is possible. I was watching another Denzel Washington film last night, Safe House, and yet again I was amazed at the speed with which agencies can get background info etc, where it would take just a little longer in real life, despite computerisation.
But back to Training Day: I agree with the original poster. Apart from anything else, once, in Alonzo's story, Roger has been killed, HQ or whatever you call it, would have been informed. Searching the place would not be top priority at all. It can be done in four hours time, tomorrow, any time. But then you can pull most films apart after the event. I just like to go with the flow. -
pfgpowell-1 — 12 years ago(April 19, 2013 12:21 AM)
Bearing in mind that we are discussing a film rather than real life and in films everything is possible. I was watching another Denzel Washington film last night, Safe House, and yet again I was amazed at the speed with which agencies can get background info etc, where it would take just a little longer in real life, despite computerisation.
But back to Training Day: I agree with the original poster. Apart from anything else, once, in Alonzo's story, Roger has been killed, HQ or whatever you call it, would have been informed. Searching the place would not be top priority at all. It can be done in four hours time, tomorrow, any time. But then you can pull most films apart after the event. I just like to go with the flow.