Norris Packard
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dac287 — 18 years ago(August 03, 2007 02:58 PM)
Guiniess was just too out there. Char was completely cool and I oculdn't not like him. Zechs Marquaise and Treize were both obnoxious and frustrating at one point in Gundam Wing (Zechs's terrible theory in the last 5 episodes turning him into a huge villain) but were still interesting to watch and even like.
Guiniess was just too much when he killed the general and then shot his own sister. Albeit he did have one ihlarious line. Shiro yells "I'll make you pay for this!" and Guiniess somehow hears it (I don't know why, as Shiro was not in his Mobile suit and looked like an ant to Guiniess, but whatever) and syas "I doubt thatBut if you come back to haunt me that would be interesting. I have always wanted to see a ghost."
That was a great dickish line. A good villain, but I couldn't empathize with his character though. Maybe it is because in the OVA's short run we never really got to see his POV enough. -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 04, 2007 05:30 PM)
Guiniess had a lot of funny lines, I'd agree. He seemed to get off on the carnage.
I also thought one of the coolest badass images the whole show (besides Shiro shedding a tear as he blew that woman away and Norris walking side by side his Zaku) would have to be Guniess walking away from the dead scientist room where he dropped a gernade in the champaigne glass and is leaning against the wall as the fire from the explosion follow him from behind.
It made me almost forgive him for killing the Admiral (in "cool anime character" sort of way) but then he shot his sister and got the hospital ship blown up and I'm like "screw that, guy's a douche." That's the way the cookie crumbles. -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 05, 2007 08:11 PM)
It was more sad and pathetic. He and Guinias brought it both on them. They were both bent on their ways of thinking and could not change. Sure Aina and Shiro could be percieved as idealists and niave in the last episodes (as Karen called them) but they merely wanted to do what was right. They weren't bound by tradition and sensless killing or the archane reasons men must fight (the heart of all Gundam shows).
I didn't pity either one of them. As much as I could find reason to dislike Char, Treize and Zechs as my other favorite Gundam pilots, I never really did (though I came close with Zechs at the end of Wing but he redeemed himself) and was so sorry to see them all go (albeit Zechs.like almost every Wing character, didn't really die in his death scene).
Oh well. -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 06, 2007 01:13 PM)
Yeahbut Char was a badass.
You have a point. I wasn't sorry to see Char die in Counterattack, but I didn't hate him, either. It simply felt fitting.
YOu make a good point Guinias just wanted his machine to kill some beep and he didn't care what. I also agree the general was pretty damn dumb to order his sniper to shoot Shiro first. Why not take out the guy in the big freaking machine trying to blow you up and then worry about executing Shiro Armada? The sniper also got himself killed by taking the shot at Shiro and Aina as they were SOTPPING it so the Ginas could kill him, instead of shooting at Ginias and trying to help them. Not too bright. -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 07, 2007 03:14 PM)
I do agree it was very refreshing to see a series where there were plenty of Zeon soldiers and officers to like. I indeed liked Norris and the admiral and two of the three unit that attacked Kiki's village. Sure Ginias was a crazy douche, but he was far worse than anoyone else in the show except perhaps the general as they were both ready to execute good soldiers on their side of the war because of personal prejudices (the general) or just inane logic (Ginias).
Zechs and Treize, eh? Ironically Treize is easier to explain as what he does motivates Zechs in his actions. I will say first though that the entire movie Endless Waltz is a huge bone thrown to the fans. I mean it has pretty animation and shows the custom designs that were originally intended for the Gundams and gives a better resolution for each character (except the Heero/Relena relationship which in the movie and OVA they leave up to the viewer, but I hear even that is given resolution in the manga). You see Duo working in salvaging and money with Hilde, Quatre continuing the family business, Relena grow up and becoming a realist trying to achieve her ideals instead of an idealist, etc.
But the plot was paper thin and had more holes than swiss cheese, especially if you compare it to the beginning of the show. They implied Zechs lived at the end of the show so seeing him around in a few short scenes was again (still "redeemed"), fan service.
Anyway (sorry for the length but this was a very complex/convoluted show),
Treize Kushrenada(sp?) was very much an idealist. he romanticized war and loved it, but believed in war with chivalry. He ultimately subscribed to the Machiavellian leader and understood waar was a bad thing (that he loved to study, though) and the best way to contain war is to upheave all power in the world and Space colonies so there would be one oppresive rule. He believed he must lead the world as "It's a known fact people like to be told what to do and they psychologically receive pleasure from it."
So he used the Romefellor Foundation (an aristocratic organization that would be like if all the coorporations in the world were run by aristocrats and teamed up into one giant lobbying company) as a member to rise in the ranks of an oppresive authoritative version of a UN-esque world government, the Alliance. The Alliance ruled the world but there was still squabbling and war within its nations who did not join and the space colonies wanted to break away, so their leader (the real Heero Yuy) was assassinated and the colonies were disconnected so as to not talk to one another again. this is when the scientists split up among five colonies and built five Gundams.
Anyway.back on point. Treize used htis to his advantage. He befriended a prince of one of the earth nations opposed to the Alliance, Milliardo Peacecraft. After the nation was invaded and destroyed by the Alliance, Treize let the boy into the Specials under the name of Zechs Marquaise and the boy wore a mask vowing never to show his face until he exacted revenge on those responsible for obliterating the Sanc Kindgom.
The Specials were run by Romefellor's militaristic group called Oz. Oz was part of the Alliance but was the branch that made the mobile suits and it/the Specials (the pilots who flew for Oz as they were considered a more competent side than the Alliance. Think army vs. marines type rivalry here) was led by Treize.
When the Alliance started moving towards peace Treize decided to make his move for power as he didn't trust the Alliance moving for unilateral peace and demilitarization through diplomacy and essentially a form of democracy. He under Romefellor's command started a coup in which Oz turned on the Alliance and took everything over. This included Zechs killing the men responsible for the attack on the Sanc Kingdom. Meanwhile Treize tricked the Gundam pilots into killing the Alliance leaders pushing for Pacifcism and peace and thus making the colonies look bad towards earth and pushing for war even greater.
This let his assistant go to space, Lady Une, who argued that the colonies are safe and independent from Oz and they should form an alliance against THE Alliance and prevent war. Once they agreed Oz started making them build mobile suits for future wars and thus inadvertantly was creating a nesting ground for more war.
Meanwhile Zechs reclaimed the Sanc Kingdom and was allowed to refrom it thanks to Treize. But he felt guilty for becoming a soldier and killing so many (including his own men) so he let his long-lost sister run the Kingdom while he lost a reason to live. He hadn othing to fight for anymore. He decided to keep being a soldier and fight the Gundam pilots and became obsessed with fighting and killing Heero Yuy (even though his sister was in love with him). He even disobeyed Romefellor and rebuilt Heero's Gundam so they could have a pointless duel and had Noin (as well as himself) kill Oz soldiers who got in the way. Thank -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 09, 2007 10:27 AM)
I agree the Gou pilot was likeable if a bit of a twat for supposedly ready to die to find out why he was spared (though he was really just stalling for time). I also liked the Admiral because while he may have been a jerk to Aina he realized Guinias was off his rocker. HE also cared very much about his men and was right that the war would be decided in space and was willing to die for his men and when he gets them back safely he is unceremoniously killed by Gunias.
I agree we don't want to know what happened to his secretary either.
And Zechs does follow some of Char's traits but I think unlike Arthrun (or whatever the Seed character's name is), he has his own distinct personality and traits. And I wouldn't say Treize is a good guy or saint either. I certainly felt that Une whitewashed him a little after he died and Zechs may have been too hard on the guy afterwards, but I think they both had a point. Treize did start out as the man who would be king and openly had the Gundams assassinate the Alliance leaders/pacifists so he could take over. It was only after realizing he was still a pawn of Romefellor and the world was moving to an "unchivalrous" end aka fighting with dolls and dirty tactics (not that I would consider tricking Gundam pilots as playing clean) did he lose his will to fight. He mocked pacificism but saw Relena stand up more to Romefellor than he could and was impressed. It was somewhere in this time and Zechs becoming the leader of the White Fang did he hatch a new plan for domination. But his point was to save the Earth at this stage and end this era of war and he was willing to let Relena and her kind to have a try for the new era.
I think he went through a subtle arc and we saw the epiphony from dictator to disillusioned soldier but we never really see the transition to one willing to die for peace until well the last 4 episodes, in which he dies for peace. I'd call him enigmatic more than a peace lover. He didn't begin the show as such and ended it martyring himself (albeit I think only Une really appreciated the jesture). But as I said he wanted to be the "benvolent dictator" and hold peace by the sword originally and that is NOT true peace. Now his daughter on the other hand.that was one crazy little girl. Crazy.
P.S. That was always a cool image and Une was probably one of the best characters. She goes through huge changes but you understand them every step of the way as she goes from that megabitch to being split between that and a peace loving diplomat to please Treize. And then she manages to merge the personalities into one of the coolest characters in the show/movie.
P.P.S. I agree the only character I downright hated in GW was Wufei (and maybe a few of the scrubs who come in for a few episodes like the Doll inventor who get kaboomed) and the scientists who built the Gundam. Wufei was just a prick. Glad we agree. -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 18, 2007 05:01 PM)
Indeed. All Gundam shows (save for MS 08th Team) have the inherit ability to make sure that all mass produced mobile suit enemies to the main characters are cannon fodder idiots. There are a few exceptions in every series but those exceptions still end up 'sploded.
The Zeon, Grunts and Alliance/OZ should all have learned that sending huge numbers of mobile suits towards Gundam with the express strategy of standing there and shooting them leads to massive losses. The only exception when a bad guy leader gives a half-strategy that works until again they have to try and destroy the Gundam.
In MS 08th Team it was clearly they had to work to kill a Zaku which was no easy task and Gundams weere much more vulnerable too. -
dac287 — 18 years ago(August 22, 2007 02:50 PM)
I do agree that I prefer the style of the MS 08th Team's depiction of the One Year War (as very even handed with mobile suits as extensions of weapons today) over the original series. But that gave a rich backdrop for the rest of the series to be based. Which is why I say Wing may be my favorite but the One Year WAr is the richer timeline because of the things you can explore outside of the main show(s) like MS 08th Team, War in the Pocket, 0080, etc. I think for the "unbeatable Gundam" story Wing, did it better in many respects.
Anyway, it's been great talking to you about this as a fellow Gundam fan going over it again for the first time in a long time. Thanks. -
Topsword — 18 years ago(October 24, 2007 08:56 AM)
The Zeon in the gundam story arc were described as fascists. It was they that declared war on the Federation ,and killed many civilians in the space colonies and on earth. The Zeon being spacenoids thought they were superior to the earthnoids and the earth federation government that govern both the earth and the colonies. The Zeon really wanted to rule the space colonies and earth with harsh fascist dictatorship and sending earthnoids to concentration camps if they have had their way. There's alot of rotten apples everywhere. But the Zeon had a whole bunch. Starting with Char ,and other zeon high ranking people. The federation had their share too. Like the titans in the zeta gundam series. But when it comes to the one year war. I side with the Federation on this one against the Zeon, the Aeug against the corrupt Titans in Zeta ,the Aeug against Haman Karn and Neo Zeon in Zz and the Federation/londo bell against Char and his neo Zeon on CCA.