Do you think Nate grew at all?
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NinetyPercentGravity — 11 years ago(March 15, 2015 08:38 PM)
You lost me at closed off and insecure. He always was this complete extrovert, a beaming leo with a loud mouth and a love for his own voice. He could not wait to jump at the first opportunity to whinge, complain, shout, accuse, belittle, etcetc
Ahhh and the reason for that might be because I said
David
began as "closed off and insecure" haha. -
SirPsychoSexy91 — 10 years ago(April 11, 2015 04:40 PM)
You just wrote down a lot of my thoughts exactly. Nate did not grow as a person, rrepeating the same behaviour and making the same mistakes over and over. When he cheated (or was about to cheat, I'm not sure) on Lisa with Brenda, Lisa was the one who died. When he later cheated on Brenda with Maggie, he was the one to go. It's like fate gave him a second chance and decided it was game over when he blew it again. (Yes, I know it's fictional and it's not actually fate, but writing. I'm not a crazy person.)
To me, it's good that there's an exception to the rule and that there's someone who doesn't really change their ways. Plenty of people I know (some of whom are family, actually) stay malcontent, unreliable, even petty or hateful until the day they die. I think it's much more true to life this way.
It actually scares me how much I can relate to Nate at this point in my life. I'm 23 and have had plenty of flings, sometimes more than one at a time, but never a serious relationship. I'm going to a different continent to study (and possibly work) in six months. I really identify with his restlessness and his fear of commitment. I just hope that unlike him, I can manage to break the vicious circle. -
FilmAlicia — 10 years ago(August 22, 2015 10:26 AM)
Spoilers ahead:
I'm about the watch the series finale, but I definitely DO think Nate grew throughout the series, I just don't think he ever "arrived" and since he died so young, he never had the opportunity to complete his journey.
I saw Nate as, essentially, a simple, loving person, with emotional intelligence as opposed to as a deep thinker. For instance, in the episode in which he worked at the "Doggy Daycare," he could relate very well to the dogs, because of their simplicity. In the same way, Maggie was a less complex person than Brenda or Lisa, and I think that was one of the things that drew Nate to her.
Lisa was a perfectionist, and I felt that Nate's character was "flattened out" when he was with her, and trying to live up to her expectations. And Brenda seemed to be permanently dissatisfied, so that she had to constantly second guess, overanalyze, and question every interaction.
The same qualities that made Nate so good with the grieving clients of Fisher and Sons made him a loving person who just wanted things in his life to be simple and direct. The question may be why he kept getting into relationships with women who weren't right for him, like Brenda, and Lisa. Maybe he just wanted to be happy, and kept trying, and when he finally did achieve happiness, with Maggie, he died. -
njohnson-05470 — 10 years ago(August 28, 2015 10:58 AM)
He did not achieve happiness with Maggie. He had an awkward affair with her. Both of them were uncomfortable about it afterwards, and then Nate went narm.
After he recovered, Nate gave up. He was tired of fighting and just gave up. -
FilmAlicia — 10 years ago(August 29, 2015 03:05 PM)
I'm not saying that Nate and Maggie had any future together, or that there was anything special between them. He and Maggie were happy for one night, and he was happy and not regretful about what they had done the next day after he came out of surgery.
I don't think Nate died because he slept with Maggie, or because he "just gave up." He died due to a bleed in his brain. Perhaps he died because he didn't monitor his medical condition carefully enough after he had brain surgery a few years before.
You can argue that Nate didn't grow, and some people believe that no one ever really changes, but people keep trying anyway, and I think Nate always kept trying. He did say he was tired of fighting with Brenda, but that may be because he sensed, as people often do, that he was close to death.
I'm still trying to puzzle out why David was a "stoner" in Nate's final dream. It is never explained in the show, that I can see. I think it had something to do with David "loosening up" in time. -
NinetyPercentGravity — 10 years ago(August 29, 2015 11:12 PM)
I don't think Nate died because he slept with Maggie, or because he "just gave up." He died due to a bleed in his brain. Perhaps he died because he didn't monitor his medical condition carefully enough after he had brain surgery a few years before.
Clearly every single person on this board understands that yes, physiologically, Nate died as a result of a brain hemorrhage and not because he decided to get cozy with another woman.
When I wrote the OP and stated that I saw Nate's death as a punishment for his actions, I was not implying that Nate's body gave out on him at that moment because he decided to have sex with Maggie, I was suggesting that the writers decided to kill Nate at that time as a sort of cosmic fate for being so damaging and irresponsible with regards to his new wife and family.
Nate had a chance at happiness with Lisa and although it was not his fault that Hoyt (most likely) did what he did to Lisa, Nate certainly wasn't about to win any awards for his behavior in that relationship. He was distant and avoidant of his new wife and despite his best efforts to be a good husband, it was clear that he didn't want to be with her. It's even brought up in the show that Nate wanted an out and wanted to get out of that marriage and situation with Lisa, he just didn't want it to happen the way it did.
But Nate still wanted to be better and did want to be a good husband regardless of how well he actually showed that, so he was given another chance with Brenda, a character that had actually displayed a significant and noticeable effort to be a good wife and mother to Maya. So Nate is awarded this redo, a second chance at happiness, another opportunity to actually be invested and present as opposed to looking 10 steps ahead of him at whatever better option may be out there. And he blows it, and he is punished for it. -
FilmAlicia — 10 years ago(September 05, 2015 03:15 AM)
I think there might be a simpler explanation for why the writers decided to kill Nate. Because, everybody dies.
Perhaps Nate's character dies to show how all of the characters in a series centered around a funeral parlor have grown and changed since Nathaniel's death in the pilot episode.
If you look at what the series creator says about Nate, he calls him "the most spiritual character in the series," which does not suggest that Nate dies as a punishment for his lack of growth, or for "blowing it" with his new family. If you look at the words the writers have George say at Nate's funeral, he says that "Nate was an idealist."
The character who has the most reason to believe Nate didn't grow would arguably be Brenda, but she is able to move on with her life and stop fearing that something will happen to Willa after she has a healing dream about Nate, which comes after she has a healing conversation with Ruth.
If you look at the impact that Nate's death has on all the major characters, David is finally able to overcome his own fear of death and be happy, Brenda is able to accept help from Ruth, and Nate's "ghost" urges Claire not to be afraid to start her new life in New York. Ruth is able to move on as much as it is possible for a mother who lost a son when she talks to Maggie and hears that Nate was happy on the last night before his death.
In terms of the idea that Nate dies because he blows it with Brenda, maybe Nate's purpose in Brenda's life was to help her grow, and to give her Willa and to give Maya a mother? When relationships don't work, sometimes its nobody's fault, or it's everybody's fault. Or, it just wasn't meant to be. -
NinetyPercentGravity — 10 years ago(September 05, 2015 09:18 AM)
I think that in a show as fine-tuned and masterfully made as Six Feet Under, killing a main character for the sole and single reason of "everybody dies," isn't necessarily in the cards. I agree that Nate's death adds to the theme that death is all-encompassing, and I would agree that Nate's death was used as a way to come full circle from Nathaniel's death, but neither of those are reasons to explain why the writers happened to kill Nate one scene after he decided to have sex with Maggie.
If anything, him being the "most spiritual character in the series," a character that believed in karma and cosmic energy, would support the idea that him dying at the peculiar time that he did was actually him getting his comeuppance. I think this show is too smart and the writers were too intelligent to just say:
"Hey what scene were you thinking we should kill Nate in?
I don't know, I was thinking after that adultery scene but it doesn't really matter.
Okay sounds good to me!"
Everything on this show was done for a reason, including the decision to kill Nate when they did. The "everybody dies" argument doesn't give them enough credit, if that was their sole motivation for why they wanted Nate to die, they could have done it at home in his bed or killed him during an intake or some other insignificant moment in his life.
I understand that his death does provide an inciting incident in growth in the other characters, I'm not arguing about that, my point is merely in the time in which they decided to kill Nate, not why they actually did it from a plot perspective. His death speaks to the idea that life is too short and that you must take every opportunity to live it.
He was given many chances to live a full life, he squandered several of them, he left the earth at a very sudden and abrupt place in his development, never being given the opportunity to apologize or make it work with Brenda, never having the opportunity to see his daughter be born of his sister leave home, etc,. He spent his entire life trying to be the best version of himself and trying to be this perfect human being, and then 10 minutes after he abandons that and cheats on his pregnant wife, he's on his way to the ER. I really don't think it's a coincidence. -
FilmAlicia — 10 years ago(September 05, 2015 04:29 AM)
Here's what Alan Ball says about Nate:
http://movieweb.com/six-feet-under-creator-alan-ball-talks-about-the-end-of-the-hbo-series/
I can't cut and paste from the article, but the gist is that Ball says he loves the character, thinks there is a lot of "Hamlet" in him, and thinks he is a heroic character. -
hnt_dnl — 10 years ago(September 19, 2015 12:00 PM)
I think part of it is that Nate's obsession with his own mortality prevented him from living in the moment and enjoying life. I always thought that was the conceit of this show. Even times when they tried to make Brenda look selfish and self-absorbed, it was really Nate deflecting from his own faults and weaknesses. And it's realistic. Most shows would have the main change over time just to make the audience feel good.
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smooth_op_85 — 10 years ago(October 10, 2015 05:42 PM)
I've always seen Nate like my ex boyfriend, the moment that something doesn't work the way he wants it to, he runs off.
He is an extrovert, assertive and isn't afraid to speak his mind but constantly acts as if it's his Mother's fault that he's back at home, he could've left at any time he wanted and sold his share to Rico who wanted it so badly. He gets back with Brenda after Lisa dieswhich I think is left open to kind of give him an easy out to Brenda.
He is the kind of character that you hope learns something, but when it really comes down to it, they are always behind the 8 ball because they just like being able to be in the same position -
!!!deleted!!! (23568926) — 10 years ago(January 21, 2016 11:55 PM)
If Nate Fisher's struck down by God for philandering, how's Mick Jagger still living? I don't think such a black&white moral universe applies to 'Six Feet Under.'
Frankly, it blows my mind how Nate's so loathed. By the time he's married to Brenda, he's been through too much to pretend to be happyat least, not for long. Pretending to be happy, I've noticed, is a skill many people have mastered. If Nate hasn't learned it, that's too bad for his skill but says a lot for his human integrity. To leave your pregnant wife for your stepsister takes enormous courageEVERYONE'S going to st on that, and no one seems to care for love, just duty. Well, duty, as Oscar Wilde put it, is "doing what other people want because they want it." He saw happiness in Maggie and he had the balls to reach for it. If heaven really did strike him down, at least he went down with his middle finger up. -
cherubalways — 9 years ago(October 12, 2016 02:59 AM)
i'm not really sure. and, i like that alan ball made it that way. i waited for nate's "epiphany" and it never happened. many people in this life never change, or change very little, but that's why i like that nate was left the way he was. it rang true for me. he told megan "i have so much to tell you" or something like that from his hospital bed as she was leaving. i actually like the uncertainty. was megan his soul mate? would he ultimately dump her if he'd lived? i love it!
If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. -
LetsDriveSomewhere — 9 years ago(November 04, 2016 08:57 AM)
I hate to do this, but I'd basically be writing the same exact thing over again:
Nate's Journey from Empath to Narcissist
http://www.imdb.com/board/10248654/board/flat/262945106
You think I'd speak for you?
I don't even know your language. -
LetsDriveSomewhere — 9 years ago(November 04, 2016 10:06 AM)
Nate tried to change and tried to convince himself that he could be happy playing the part of the dutiful and amicable husband and father, he tried that with both Brenda and Lisa, and he failed miserably both times, in almost identical ways.
I feel Nate did not try to change at all, neither with Brenda nor Lisa. There was a revolving door aspect with both of those relationships that must be considered. Nate used Lisa all throughout their years of "friendship." He knew she was in love with him and he never had any intention to commit to her despite the fact that he was sleeping with her. Of course, their sexual encounters weren't ongoing. He would only escape with her occasionally whenever he was feeling down. He would pursue other relationships with more exciting, perhaps more beautiful, women, and when that wouldn't work, he would return to good ole Lisa. Even when he returned to California for the holiday, we have no idea what his relationship was back in Seattle with Lisa. Of course, she knew they were only "friends," but she also always held on to the hope that they'd be more and Nate knew that much. He didn't anticipate that his father would die or that his mother would ask him to stay or that he would meet a new, exciting and intoxicating woman (Brenda).
Now, let's move on to his relationship with Brenda. He was definitely drawn toward her, practically addicted. She also made him feel that he wasn't a failure for returning to the family business he swore he'd never participate in. When their relationship became challenging and he felt he couldn't confide in Brenda with his medical issues, he returned to Lisa for comfort. Then he was off again, unknowingly leaving her pregnant. It was only when Nate discovered Brenda was essentially living a double life that the two of them destroyed each other, broke up, and Nate married Lisa. I mean, he might as well, right? She was
only
carrying his child!
Of course he destroyed his marriage with Lisa. It was never genuine. I agree that he attempted to play the part of father and husband, but more due to how it made him "look" (to some unknown viewer, maybe God?) or more due to how Nate thought him doing these things made other people feel about his participation. It was not actually about him being "happy" is what I'm getting at. I don't know that he was capable of achieving happiness or contentment as much as he was motivated by giving off the appearance of being a "good guy." But he never could actually pull that off because he was not actually
that guy.
He was certainly never present to be a real husband in Lisa's real marriage, and it was a though he could not understand why his mere participation was not enough for her. I might not be remembering correctly, but I recall one dream sequence Nate had where Lisa visited him after her death and he told her he thought she was his once in a lifetime chance that he messed up. Her response to him was, "Nate, I'm not a chance, I'm a person."
How can
she
be a chance? A chance at what? She was his friend, lover, wife, partner, and somehow he completely missed that. He just thought she was a missed opportunity, but an opportunity for what? It was as though Nate was using Lisa to prove something, but to prove what? And to whom?
Do you see the distance Nate experiences between his real self and his fantasy self? It's all right and amusing enough whenever he's spouting grandiose rhetorical b.s. with his brother, but it's not enough to cut it in an intimate relationship with a spouse.
Nate only returned to Brenda as a result of Lisa's devastating death. Do you see the revolving door? He is just spinning and falling and spinning and falling into one situation after another. These are not active choices. These are not intentional attempts at relationships. These are behavioral patterns.
It is absolutely true that he would have ruined any serious relationship he had with Maggie as well.
You think I'd speak for you?
I don't even know your language. -
sawfan1414 — 9 years ago(November 21, 2016 07:12 AM)
Actually, no, not really.
In the first episode, he was portrayed as a cocky, charasmatic, selfish yet fun loving narcissist, and he remained that way to varying degrees throughought. I recall Alan Ball saying somewhere in an interview that he made a conscientious decision for Nate to be the grounded everyman character where everything around him evolves, while he stays stagnate.