I saw it as rape, by the way she quietly said "please stop", and how she was crying silently through the whole thing. I
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cathyleo2003 — 15 years ago(May 16, 2010 03:25 PM)
I believe she stabbed herself in her shoulder to make sure she would never be able to play the piano again. It was like she was punishing her mother and everyone else taking that away from them. That was my take on it.
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cathyleo2003 — 15 years ago(May 16, 2010 03:19 PM)
To me the reason she looked rejected is because she planned on using that knife on him but he came in witha group of people. She then turned it and used it on herself. I also grappled with the "rape" scene and wondered if a person not prone to violence would have stooped to what she wanted no matter how much he supposedly loved her. I then wondered if this was his makeup all along. There are a lot of questions about his character change but I emphatically believe he raped her. Nothing more.
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lyndsay_lane — 14 years ago(November 01, 2011 09:49 PM)
I thought immediately that it wasn't rape. Rape scenes in films really, really bother me, and this scene did not. Because he was doing what she wanted! She was being completely confusing to the guy, and wrote him the most detailed letter about a rape she desired (he actually gave her the tame version) and then she acts surprised when he somewhat acts on it? She annoyed me with that. At the time his motivations were wrong, however, had she not given him that letter, I don't think he would have done that. She treated him like dog s**t, playing with his head, with his feelings, with sex, with his masculinity. That doesn't mean she deserved to be raped, but I really don't think she was raped. When you treat a guy like that and give him an instruction manual on how to rape you and say "I want this. Ignore when I say 'no' and do it more. I'm completely serious". Then pull out your rape kit you want him to use on you. What do you expect, really?
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MasterlessSamurai — 12 years ago(October 21, 2013 02:26 PM)
Of course it was rape. That is not the question. The question is, did Erika make Walter a rapist, and all signs would point to yes.
She dragged his still young mind down into the sickness and depravity of her world and he simply could not adjust. When we are first introduced to the character, although he is brash because of his age, he wasn't a sexual deviant or rapist.
This can be seen with their first encounter in the bathroom. Walter at that time was still mentally stable, able to understand "Nos", "Stop". He truly was in love with that woman, but Erika's game irreparably damaged his psyche.
The heart crushing thing is, that when Erika realised she couldn't live without Walter and was willing to change for him, his mind, his demeanor had become twisted. Erika managed to pull her self out of the hole, momentarily, but forgot to pull Walter out as well.
The entire scenario was reversed. Walter was now the deviant masturbating outside of apartments, where as that was Erikas depravity, by the time Erika had come to a somewhat "sane" place. Walter was now lost to her.
It was so soul destroying. We now have to assume Erika has created a monster and with the end of the film, her realisation of losing him, she has slipped back into the madness. -
KayDrama — 12 years ago(February 02, 2014 01:56 PM)
MasterlessSamurai, I agree with most of your post except that it was not rape. Klemmer has his instructions from her, in writing, to "keep going even if I say stop". Yes, she did whisper "please stop", but he also stopped at least four times during the sex act. 1) to see why she is not responding [turned on] since this is what she asked for; 2) to beg her to respond and "love me"; 3) to ask her "to give"; and 4) to ask her "does this [lack of response] mean you want me to go?" She never said "yes, go" which would have meant he would've stopped what he was doing.
He locked her mother in her room because he knew that was all part of what Erika THOUGHT would turn her on. After the first initial slap he asks her "is this what you want?". The only thing i thought was pushing it was the kick (but she wanted much worse in her instructions) and in leaving her lying on the floor. He could have at least carried her to the couch/bed in "her" room. -
TheIcon2 — 12 years ago(March 06, 2014 09:34 AM)
Its only rape if Erika said it was rape. As a society we can stand on the outside and label something as rape. However as participants often times the lines are blurred. Kinky sex to one isn't kinky to another. Wipping someones ass is stimulating to some and punishment to others. Rape to one isn't rape to another. etc etc.
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KayDrama — 12 years ago(March 06, 2014 03:43 PM)
Hey, I agree with you about if a woman feels it is rape, is rape except, where this character is concerned and if a situation is iffy like this -the lines are blurred because of her requests in the letter and her overall mental instability.
How can there be any doubt what she wanted? In most of life we are held to "did you put it in writing?" Well, she did and people still think this was rape.
Frankly, I feel sorry for the guy. He had no really adventurous fantasies until she put the idea in his head that he could satisfy her this way. I'm sorry that he ever came into contact with her madness and hope it hasn't developed a taste in him that he may not be able to get satisfied with the girl of his choice. It may leave him out there searching outside of his relationship for someone who enjoys a bit of violence. Not saying that's bad for people who are into it together, but if you are into it and your monogomous significant other isn't. ..
And in response to those who think the guy is the reason she stabbed herself - no way do I think she stabbed herself because she was raped. More likely because her fantasies that she thought would elicit a fulfillment response created nothing in her.
And the selfish bitch - if she was so miserable she wanted to kill herself, she should have stayed home and done it instead of showing up at the concert Hall to try to inflict guilt on a guy who tried to give her what she specifically, in writing, asked for.
Sorry for typos, I'm swyping. -
Helena727 — 10 years ago(April 20, 2015 10:55 AM)
She dragged his still young mind down into the sickness and depravity of her world We now have to assume Erika has created a monster
MasterlessSamurai
, I think you're reading this in a way that's both psychologically untrue and rather anti-woman.
Haneke is making the point that each one of us is a complex mix of light and dark; I think he's also suggesting that we have a tremendous responsibility to understand ourselves (so we can channel aggression and rage in ways that don't destroy) and that our failure to do so is at the root of this increasingly violent society. Erika didn't "make" Walter one thing or another; we all have the same raw materials.
The duality (for lack of a better word) of human nature has long been observed and commented on but now our refusal to evolve psychologically has catastrophic consequences, because we've figured out how to destroy others very quickly/"efficiently", and because we've upped the tension on every society by fouling and overpopulating the planet. Unaddressed human aggression isn't quite as big a problem when your most lethal weapon is a club and when you can easily find new territory in order to avoid those you can't get along with.
"All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people." -
the_spiral — 10 years ago(April 23, 2015 11:40 AM)
I definitely saw it as a rape when I watched the movie. Her letter gave him specific and detailed instructions about what she wanted, and he neither agreed to them nor followed them when he busted up into her house. She may have asked for a specific sexual encounter, but he rejected her request so I don't think that gives him carte blanche to just show up and abuse her whenever he feels like it.
I think I'm also interpreting the scene as rape because I read the book, and it's written more clearly as an assault and his way of 'punishing' her for making him feel emasculated. As I recall the book has more of a feminist leaning than the movie does; Jelinek characterizes Erica as the damaged victim of a repressive Oedipal patriarchy desperately seeking freedom (and finding only destruction), whereas Haneke uses the story for one of his trademark "descent into madness/obsession" narratives and gives Erica more agency and cruelty in her motivations. They're both really well done, but I think the movie makes the relationship a little more ambiguous and Erica a little less sympathetic, so that may explain why people are coming away with different interpretations. -
PoppyTransfusion — 10 years ago(April 23, 2015 12:56 PM)
@ the_spiral - good post. I would differ in my assessment of the Erika of the book versus the Erika of the film. I found her a far more sympathetic character in the film than the book. In the book she's a monster. So the idea of her as a victim in the book whilst more cruel in the film I disagree with. But I like your assessments anyway.
A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.