Why do Indians and others come here to Britain if they don't want…
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rainleaf — 17 years ago(July 27, 2008 06:16 AM)
And the reason they have a better life is directly due to them being in a more progressive, open and tolerant culture than there own.
define better life? I would limit it to more financial opportunities, but I can't say they are benefiting too much culturally. -
Norm_uk — 17 years ago(July 29, 2008 12:24 PM)
So you think they would be better off back in the sub-continent where they would have no safer driving standards, efficient public transportation, excellent infrastructure, no arranged marriages, world class education, lack of government welfare and health cover etc?
The Sub-Continent is getting richer so are all the Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis getting ready to leave the UK then? I don't think so! -
rainleaf — 17 years ago(July 29, 2008 12:53 PM)
A lot of first generation immigrants really have to struggle with cultural assimilation and their children growing up in a completely different environment than they're used to. Yes, some of these changes are beneficial and some aren't. So it's actually a lot more subjective than some people would like to believe. It depends on your own definition of a 'better life'.
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Norm_uk — 17 years ago(August 05, 2008 01:17 PM)
So why do they stay if they feel the native culture isn't as good as theirs?
Half my family were immigrants of one sort of another and I myself work overseas a lot so I'm not some inbred country idiot whose experience of the world includes package holidays and whatever TV saysand I do wonder why some Asian communities are happy to insult their hosts (often in their own language because they think that Brits cannot learn other languages for some bizzare reason)spewing forth racist and cultural insults about the people who have enacted laws to protect their minority arses from mass oppression.
So if life isn't really better in their eyes why not just go? Sell up and leavebecause to be honest I do not think people who don't put native British culture first should be allowed to be citizens anywaysat best they should have long term work visas and that's it.
Of course that makes me a racist doesn't it? Wanting to preserve my own culture? Funny that because I am not 100% "white"but then it's about culture not race.
N.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful" -
CelinaJaitley — 17 years ago(August 13, 2008 08:03 AM)
to be honest I do not think people who don't put native British culture first should be allowed to be citizens anyways
What exactly is "native British culture"? The UK is just like the US, Canada, etc.they're all Americanized/Westernized countries that aren't that different from each other.
As for assimilation, are you sure that's a good idea? Indians are the most successful immigrants in the US and #2 in the UK (after Chinese) for a reason. We have low crime rates and high college graduate and employment rates
because
we retain culture and listen to our parents like just Chinese and Koreans do.
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princessemmafan — 17 years ago(August 13, 2008 12:53 PM)
I dont see a problem with them not wanting their kids to marry white kids, its their religion. The only thing I do see a problem with is them not following our laws, so aslong as they agree to follow our laws (even if they go against their religion, after all if we go to their country we would be expected to follow their laws even if its against our religion) the there isnt a problem with them being over here.
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wieldy — 17 years ago(August 14, 2008 02:33 AM)
What exactly is "native British culture"? The UK is just like the US, Canada, etc.they're all Americanized/Westernized countries that aren't that different from each other.
I have to strongly disagree with this statement as it's completely untrue. There is such a thing as British culture and there always will be. At the moment the UK's enthic population stand at about 8%, as long as the figure remains that low then the prevailing culture will always be the British Culture.
Britian isn't an 'Americanized' culture and it's development is massively different to the US. American was colonized, mostly by British settlers, but later by settlers from all over Europe. They decimated the indiginous population and repopulated an Asian culture with a Caucasian population.
Britian's population came from a different route. We are a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, Norman, Viking and Celtic people's. The indiginous population of Britian wasn't wiped out by invaders, it was eventually assimilated providing the rich cultural heritage of the British people.
Dear Buddha, please send me a pony and a plastic rocket. -
CelinaJaitley — 17 years ago(August 14, 2008 07:39 AM)
I have to strongly disagree with this statement as it's completely untrue. There is such a thing as British culture and there always will be. At the moment the UK's enthic population stand at about 8%, as long as the figure remains that low then the prevailing culture will always be the British Culture.
Britian isn't an 'Americanized' culture and it's development is massively different to the US. American was colonized, mostly by British settlers, but later by settlers from all over Europe. They decimated the indiginous population and repopulated an Asian culture with a Caucasian population.
Britian's population came from a different route. We are a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, Norman, Viking and Celtic people's. The indiginous population of Britian wasn't wiped out by invaders, it was eventually assimilated providing the rich cultural heritage of the British people.
???
You disagreed with my point about culture, but what you've given to counter it is an ancestry breakdown of the indigenous people of Britain and nothing about
culture
. How each country has developed is irrelevant; the fact is the culture of all the Anglophone countries today is not very different from each other
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Norm_uk — 17 years ago(August 17, 2008 02:44 PM)
Neha_Dhupia: "the fact is the culture of all the Anglophone countries today is not very different from each other"
I think you mean Anglosphereand why would they be different?
That's a bit like accusing Mexicans of not being very different from Colombians?
Neha_Dhupia: "Sikh and Hindu parents don't want their children to marry someone that is not of their religion because they believe the family's religion and customs will die out with the grandchild (and they're usually right)."
Can't be a very adaptable religion and culture then can it?
By this reasoning if their culture and religion is so precious to them surely it's better to stay in the homeland and only mix with each other?
Neha_Dhupia: "When has an Indian ever had trouble complying with a law because of religion?"
Depends if the Indian in question is a Muslim, Sikh or a Hindumost Hindus are very well assimilated into British culture and have been well looked after by the UK (from when we allowed the Commonwealth Citizen Status in the 60s to the taking in of Gujurati refugees from Uganda).
Same goes for most Sikhs.
As for Muslims
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CelinaJaitley — 17 years ago(August 17, 2008 02:56 PM)
I think you mean Anglosphereand why would they be different?
The Anglosphere is made up of the Anglophone countries. And they isn't much difference; that's been my point my from the beginning.
Can't be a very adaptable religion and culture then can it?
Apparently it can. You even said yourself that Hindus and Sikhs have been able to assimilate well.
By this reasoning if their culture and religion is so precious to them surely it's better to stay in the homeland and only mix with each other?
Why should moving to another country stop them from preserving their culture and religion if it doesn't interfere with anything else?
As for Muslims
If this is really about MUSLIMS not being able to assimilate well, then why didn't you write that in the subject and original post instead of Indians? Why are Indians always getting lectured and harassed for things Muslims do when the vast majority of us aren't even Muslims?
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CelinaJaitley — 17 years ago(August 14, 2008 08:04 AM)
I dont see a problem with them not wanting their kids to marry white kids, its their religion.
Sikh and Hindu parents don't want their children to marry someone that is not of their religion because they believe the family's religion and customs will die out with the grandchild (and they're usually right).
The only thing I do see a problem with is them not following our laws, so aslong as they agree to follow our laws (even if they go against their religion, after all if we go to their country we would be expected to follow their laws even if its against our religion) the there isnt a problem with them being over here.
When has an Indian ever had trouble complying with a law because of religion?
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princessemmafan — 17 years ago(August 14, 2008 01:08 PM)
When has an Indian ever had trouble complying with a law because of religion?
They probably havent, Im not sure. But I was simply saying that aslong as they follow our laws than they have as much right to be here as we do. -
Norm_uk — 17 years ago(August 17, 2008 02:18 PM)
princessemmafan: "I dont see a problem with them not wanting their kids to marry white kids, its their religion. The only thing I do see a problem with is them not following our laws, so aslong as they agree to follow our laws (even if they go against their religion, after all if we go to their country we would be expected to follow their laws even if its against our religion) the there isnt a problem with them being over here."
Agreed.
The trouble today is that some immigrants don't think the British Common Law is good enough for them and want it replaced with some system from the Dark Ages
I personally believe immigrants should only be allowed to have long term or life residence visas no matter how long they are in the UKpassports should be reserved for people who completely adopt native British names, dress, customs, language and cultureeveryone else should be welcome guests.
of course if I say that everyone will call me racist because British people are not allowed to love and protect their culture. British people have to celebrate Eid and Diwali and learn about how wicked their ancestors were for having an Empire instead
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Norm_uk — 17 years ago(August 17, 2008 02:02 PM)
Neha_Dhupia:
What exactly is "native British culture"? The UK is just like the US, Canada, etc.they're all Americanized/Westernized countries that aren't that different from each other.
Native British culture is anything English, Scots or Welshthings like Shakespeare, Haggis, drinking tea with milk, Roast dinner, real ale, punctuality, excellent education, Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, David Beckham, Gaelic languages, 1400 years of literature from Beowulf to Chaucer - to Keats to JRR Tolkein, The Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, Iron Maiden, The Spice Girls, Portishead, James Bond, The Balti Curry, The Scientific Method, and thousands of artists, writers, poets, inventors, scientists, statesmen and leaders
Your comments about Americanisation (with American spelling no less!) are quite ignorant really and would be insulting but for your complete lack of understanding of what culture means.
"As for assimilation, are you sure that's a good idea? Indians are the most successful immigrants in the US and #2 in the UK (after Chinese) for a reason. We have low crime rates and high college graduate and employment rates because we retain culture and listen to our parents like just Chinese and Koreans do."
Yes assimilation is a fantastic idea - better than congregating in ghettos which breed racism and crime don't you think? Better than keeping divided and thinking your own culture is better despite coming to our country and succeeding because our culture provided you with the means to prosper in ways you could never have done so in your ancestral homelands.
Most Indians and Chinese send money to their country of origin so that's no so good for the UK and USA is it?
Anyway I am really on about completely inflexible cultures and religions (such as extreme Isalm) and the anti-white racism it breeds (and understanding a little Hindi/Urdu allows me to see how racist Indians are towards native Europeans sometimes!). I've worked in the middle east and india and found everything an uphill struggle - decisions take forever, people are rude, not punctual and generally incapable of independent thinking.
N.
PS: What language are we speaking nowChinese? Sanskrit? -
CelinaJaitley — 17 years ago(August 17, 2008 03:03 PM)
Native British culture is anything English, Scots or Welshthings like Shakespeare, Haggis, drinking tea with milk, Roast dinner, real ale, punctuality, excellent education, Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, David Beckham, Gaelic languages, 1400 years of literature from Beowulf to Chaucer - to Keats to JRR Tolkein, The Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, Iron Maiden, The Spice Girls, Portishead, James Bond, The Balti Curry, The Scientific Method, and thousands of artists, writers, poets, inventors, scientists, statesmen and leaders
Your comments about Americanisation (with American spelling no less!) are quite ignorant really and would be insulting but for your complete lack of understanding of what culture means.
Then enlighten me. Okay, some books, pop groups and UK celebs? Sorry, but the UK is still not
that
different from the US, Canada, etc. Britons like you complain about losing your culture, but you don't seem to mind Americanization.
Yes assimilation is a fantastic idea - better than congregating in ghettos which breed racism and crime don't you think? Better than keeping divided and thinking your own culture is better despite coming to our country and succeeding because our culture provided you with the means to prosper in ways you could never have done so in your ancestral homelands.
And how this quote above apply to Indians again?
Most Indians and Chinese send money to their country of origin so that's no so good for the UK and USA is it?
So, what's wrong with sending some extra money? The US and UK still benefit from their presence. And it's not like Indians and Chinese send every single penny they don't use back to Asia.
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Norm_uk — 17 years ago(August 19, 2008 11:11 PM)
Neha_Dhupia:
"Then enlighten me. Okay, some books, pop groups and UK celebs? Sorry, but the UK is still not that different from the US, Canada, etc. Britons like you complain about losing your culture, but you don't seem to mind Americanization. [
]"
Enlighten you? Aside from lists of examples of British culture? Are you reading selectively?
Of course UK culture is not so different from US and Canadian culture (but different enough to be distinct for sure) - both those countries were British colonies and were settled by large amounts of British immigrants (or invaders!)these countries are our cousins and brothersthere culture is not alien to us, and the differences are mostly minor.
You seem to be part of the popular anti-American movement. And you seem to think American culture is such a bad thing (they have freedoms you cannot even imagine and more money than everyone else hehe). Personally I see them as our closest friends in the world - we have fought and died together to defend the free world from tyranny many times last century.
"And how this quote above apply to Indians again?"
Read my comments on Hindu Indians in the other posts and stop being so subjective. You sound like you are justifying Indian's presence in the UK - are you worried one day you might get asked to leave and go back to India? I doubt that will happen and it would be rather silly since the "problem" immigrant groups are mostly Muslims not HindusHindus are mostly law abiding people who have integrated very well.
"So, what's wrong with sending some extra money? The US and UK still benefit from their presence. And it's not like Indians and Chinese send every single penny they don't use back to Asia."
What are the benefits exactly? Are we richer and better off? Is there less crime? Don't get me wrong I am not part of the "deport everyone" crowdbut I am not afraid to ask questions that no one else will ask because they are too politically correct.
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CelinaJaitley — 17 years ago(August 21, 2008 01:12 PM)
Enlighten you? Aside from lists of examples of British culture? Are you reading selectively?
And I already asked
that's all
?
You seem to be part of the popular anti-American movement. And you seem to think American culture is such a bad thing
How am I being anti-American? I'm the one who was saying that western culture essentially revolves around the US. When I say something like that on other parts of this site, I'm usually accused of being delusional and arrogant, but this time I'm anti-American? lol
Of course UK culture is not so different from US and Canadian culture (but different enough to be distinct for sure) - both those countries were British colonies and were settled by large amounts of British immigrants (or invaders!)these countries are our cousins and brothersthere culture is not alien to us, and
the differences are mostly minor.
That's what I've been trying to say from the beginning; Britain does not have some special "native culture" that some of the other posters are trying to make it out to have. It's culture is Western and it is Americanized. All countries are becoming Americanized, but the English speaking ones are obviously got there more quickly. Except I don't hear much of that "we're losing our native culture" thing from Americans and Canadians because of immigrants.
What are the benefits exactly? Are we richer and better off? Is there less crime? Don't get me wrong I am not part of the "deport everyone" crowdbut I am not afraid to ask questions that no one else will ask because they are too politically correct.
I can't speak for your country, but Asian Americans do contribute disproportionately to the American economy and are the ones who have the highest employment levels and lowest crime rates.
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ready-for-the-good-times — 17 years ago(August 31, 2008 02:00 AM)
I agree in some ways.
I DO think that if somebody doesn't wish to be included in Western Culture then they shouldn't come and live in the Western world. I also believe that in many Asian countries, Westerners are percieved as liberal, alcoholic, sleeping-around.. etc. and fair enough if they don't want to be part of that! But they shouldn't tar everyone with the same stick! Not EVERYONE here is like that, and this assumption leads to racism and ignorance.
FOR YOUR INFORMATION: The above poster says that "Britian doesn't have some special culture.. it's westernized and americanized". I disagree. I live in Scotland and I definitely have my own culture. I reject American ideals and Western "freedoms". I prefer tradition, and for this reason many of my friends are actually immigrants who also don't want to become your stereotypical englishman.. it's not because they don't want to mix with white kids, it's because they don't want to become americanized as you english so clearly wish to become. -
pracad — 17 years ago(August 31, 2008 04:31 AM)
What are you all talking about?
The problem with immigrants is not them wanting to retain their culture, it's when they come over and try to get US/UK/wherever to change to suit them.
No one is saying they can't speak their native language in their own home, listen to Indian music, cook Indian food, not be a Christian etc. Half of the people in Britain are eating currys and are not religious.
The problem with immigrants is when they are rude, like talking in their own language right in front of you, wanting to live here but not bothering to learn English, wanting rules changed because of their minority religion, constantly slagging off OUR culture, all the while, leeching off us and sending money out to their 40 family members that still live abroad.
WTF
It's true that they are mostly using the UK/USA. They want the benefits. Fine. People from 'rich' countries move about for benefits too. UK to the USA for example. But they generally follow their way of life, or keep their own but do it quietly. People shouldn't be allowed to come over, get all the benefits, but disrupt the country and try to turn said country into the one they just left. That makes no sense. You weigh it up, and do you want to be comfortable and immersed in Indian things in India. Or do you want to live in the Western way and have money..ora bigger house..or WTF it is you came over for ??? but give up your old way of life.
Choose.
That's the way it's supposed to work. -
parihav — 17 years ago(September 20, 2008 07:04 PM)
There is a simple solution if you folks don't want immigrants, and all there associated "problems"
STOP overdosing on birth control and have some damn children. Westerners are always crying about how immigrants screw things up in their country. The fact is if most western countries didn't have immmigrants, then their economies would have collapsed years ago. Negative growth due to an aging and decreasing population. Immigration offsets that trend.
However people are too used to having a good life and dumped religion in the process. Having families these days is a burden and people barely manage to have 1 or 2 children.
Immigrants are always going to maintain some form of their previous culture and propagate in a new country. That's what generations of immigrants did in the U.S.
