Atheists, if I told you….
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jmarkoff2 — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 09:43 AM)
A common fallacy theists make is to say that God/Heaven is good, but when pressed for details they admit they don't know God's deeper motivations or Heaven's basic description. To declare someone or something "good" requires some understanding of these aspects, so theists who admit ignorance of those fields must forfeit their original claim of saying that these entities are good!
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 02:51 AM)
A common fallacy theists make is to say that God/Heaven is good, but when pressed for details they admit they don't know God's deeper motivations or Heaven's basic description. To declare someone or something "good" requires some understanding of these aspects
- God is good because His Word proclaims His goodness. He is good, but He is not limited by our human understanding of "good", nor is He subject to our understanding of "good" and "evil".
The description of heaven is to be in God's presence, and fulfilling His purposes. God's deepest motivation is for us to know His love and Him personally, subjectively; share His love with and live sacrificially for others, as Jesus did and exemplified.
- God is good because His Word proclaims His goodness. He is good, but He is not limited by our human understanding of "good", nor is He subject to our understanding of "good" and "evil".
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ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 09:53 PM)
1st, it isn't really an assumption because if you are an atheist, you don't believe in God or any actions depicting him.
2nd, this question is directed towards atheists, so answering it means you are one.
3rd, I apologize if I was wrong, but do you, as an atheist, believe those stories anyway? And even if you don't I told you to take the 2nd path as I described to incorporate them as described, so I don't see the issue for you to bring this up. Why walk around the question/debate for an indirect and unconcious slight on an internet forum? -
physics101 — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 10:00 PM)
First, you are an idiot.
Second, communication is all about understanding what one person means when a word is used - regardless of any particular belief system that either party to the conversation holds. Since you fail to comprehend that - and you continue to obscure what exactly you mean when you write things like "God" or "God/Jesus" or God as Jesus the son or whatever you have posted above, at the same time saying assume this and ignore that, there isn't any use any trying further with you because I quite frankly don't have the slightest idea what connotations you are bringing to the table when you write about your postulated Supreme Deity. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 27, 2013 09:53 PM)
Or maybe I am giving a what if scenario based on some christian's beliefs. I mean, people can interpret the bible any way they want. Being a narrow-minded, atheist in a thread about openmindedness and opinion is quite rediculous. Especially when you resort to ignorant name calling, when you are ironically ignorant yourself on the topic. Please, the next time you enter a what if scenario, especially on a christian interpretation scenario, know that "NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS" and there are countless interpretations and beliefs of the new testament that call themselves christians, as a professed atheist you should be on top of this. That is all and I am done responding to your closeminded jabs.
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mamu2 — 13 years ago(April 02, 2013 06:37 AM)
"It's not forgive or forget. "
Why not? Why would someone want to spend eternity with a being who murders millions on a whim? Out of fear instead of reverence?
"As I stated, it would be a sin-less environment with billions of people in it. Aside from that it's open to interpretation, but likely there is lots of harmony, peace, joy, and positive things going on. No sins, so no hate, no violence, etc etc etc"
Sounds like your interpretation of Heaven is basically Earth without any hate or violence. Nice thought, but is it even realistic? How can that even be possible if everyone is comprised of spirit energy? -
Korios — 11 years ago(June 23, 2014 05:51 PM)
In order to be sin-free you would have to be free-will-free. It cannot be imagined that out of the billions of people in paradise not even one would sin given the chance. So you would have to lack free will, id est be a puppet of god. I think it can be safely presumed that man was given free will by "stealing" the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Free will also means that
you can choose to be evil
, so by not knowing evil and be totally innocent you certainly lack free will; so, again, you are a puppet of the creator. So man was not given free will by God, he rather stole it from him.
Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching. -
mamu2 — 11 years ago(June 24, 2014 06:27 AM)
Adam and Eve did not know they we being 'evil' or committing any sin since they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge to have that knowledge. All they did in their minds was to commit a simple disobedience. Certainly not something worth punishing all of mankind for all eternity.
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 03:19 AM)
In order to be sin-free you would have to be free-will-free.
- Not true, according to the bible, those who choose Christ are given a new sinless body similar to His, enabling believers to have free will and yet be without sin.
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."
"Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."
- Not true, according to the bible, those who choose Christ are given a new sinless body similar to His, enabling believers to have free will and yet be without sin.
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 02:01 AM)
Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin?
- Because in the greater context of His Living Words, He is love.
He asks you these questions, challenges you to prove Him wrong:
Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Where were you when I laid the earths foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, when I said, This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt?
Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert, to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orions belt? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up Gods dominion over the earth?
Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, Here we are? Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?
Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?
Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket?
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!
- Because in the greater context of His Living Words, He is love.
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graham-167 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 02:15 PM)
You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.
My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.
I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.
I should add, if you could somehow provide proof then I would become a believer, but I would most emphatically NOT become a worshipper or follower. Quite the reverse, actually. -
MnemonicDevice — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 03:20 PM)
You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.
My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.
I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.
I totally agree with this. My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument. -
cookiela2001 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 09:43 PM)
My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument.
Exactly.
I wrote in a similar thread once, that it's like asking us to "believe" some unseen color (maybe called
pendelet)
(?) is the most
beautiful
color in the universe.when we've never
seen
it.
How can one pledge to believe in something.that one has absolutely no direct experience of/with, or indication of?
. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 09:34 PM)
I'm not here to convert. It's just a what if scenario that needs faith to work, or in clearer defined words a confident belief in something that there is no material proof for. And as said above, some christians actually believe the scenario I propose.
But to address your proposal, there is no material direct evidence of God's existence, but there is also obviously no material proof that God doesn't exist. I could care less about debates on the subject because as I said, it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist. Everything anyone says in a debate on the subject can be run around or interpreted in a way where no side can win, aka there is no clear evidence for either to be proven whether some thickheaded christians or thickheaded atheists feel to think otherwise. -
Suzzett — 12 years ago(February 22, 2014 10:57 PM)
In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence.
- Irving Copi
This statement can also be known as "modus tollens"
What I have written above is the why/how science works today in developing hypothesis and eventually theories. I do not about about God, but evidence, leading to discoveries and inventions is at the moment, giving me good house to live in, proper clothes to wear and most importantly these technologies to better understand the nature in fastest possible way.
To answer your question:
I would rather not believe in eternal, happy, sin free life because that would make me stop making any progress anymore and this life I am living will be completely meaningless, compared to eternal life that I would know I will be living in.
The most powerful entity for me at the moment is time. If someone comes to me says that time is meaningless, when why live with all the pain surrounding us? Why should I just keep racing with time from waking up in morning till the night? And if someday, I realize that my whole life is reality TV show, to eventually get judged by someone called "GOD", after watching each and every scene of what I thought to be free personal life, that's when I would feel cheated and would rather die then, than living with someone sick like that. Hence, I choose not believe by choice.
- Irving Copi
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raif-1 — 12 years ago(February 23, 2014 04:58 AM)
The most powerful entity for me at the moment is time
In the Quran there is a surah where GOD mention time.
By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (Surah Al-Asr)
For more information on this surah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Asr -
Suzzett — 12 years ago(February 23, 2014 11:51 AM)
I do not understand what your argument is here. I think almost all philosophical or metaphorical books out there have some mentions of time somewhere. That does not mean that I have agree on all of them. Here's what believe time is:
It is a dimension in space, which we perceive as the fourth dimension. The time dimension helps us to recognize the order in which events have happened. And as far as we know, from second law of thermodynamics, we have a concept of something called the "arrow of time", to understand the flow of time.
I know these because I read it in a lot of books that mention "time". But the difference is that, the things written in these books, I can verify myself by setting up experiments and tests and see for myself. Where as books like Quran or Bible, I have so far found zero experiments that I test in my lab and come up with a consistent or conclusive evidence to anything.
If you are also interested, I can give you the list of books/journals/papers/thesis/dissertation that you can read for yourself to be able to do experiments in your lab too. -
cookiela2001 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 09:46 PM)
it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist
Well, you can prove he exists if he ever drops in to show his face.
Maybe even a voice with great knowledge from the sky would do.
So far, your god is rather silent.
.