First time I've seen this, so many questions!
-
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 01:49 PM)
its not appealing. You wont do it. Millions wont do it.
Because you can't force people to believe. And many people either never heard of him or require more evidence than a bunch of nitwits thumping their bibles around like they are the supreme authority on god and Christianity.much like you do.
Panzer vor! -
FirstBlood1982 — 9 years ago(January 16, 2017 08:36 PM)
Humanity has been corrupt in nature since rebelling against God in the Garden of Eden in Genesis.
Jesus was the 'second Adam' that came to repair the damage done between God and humanity caused by the first Adam.
The level of brutality inflicted upon Him was necessary because sin is horrible, and hence the punishment for sin has to be horrible. Christ was willing accepting that punishment upon Himself on our behalf
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+53%3A5&version=NLT
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+9%3A12&version=NLT
"Did I detect a second of doubt in him just before he died on the cross?"
No, "God, why have You forsaken me?" was a reference to Psalm 22. If you read the entire psalm, it begins sorrowfully but ends triumphantly for those that hold true to their faith in God
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm+22&version=NLT
It was also showing how apart He felt from God in that moment with the full weight of sin being cast upon Him.
"Why are humans still so evil?"
Because many people choose to reject God/Christ and just live their own way apart from His commands that were meant for our benefiteven many that profess faith in God/Christ aren't living according to it.
+++by His wounds we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5+++ -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(January 16, 2017 09:18 PM)
Humanity has been corrupt in nature since rebelling against God in the Garden of Eden in Genesis.
Except there is no evidence that the Eden story ever happened. Granted, it's psychologically effective for eliting guilt and a perceived need for forgiveness and ultimately for some kind of savior-from-sin. But it has no actual explanatory power, because all natural and human evil is fully explicable by understandable means - no deity, or sin against a deity, is necessary. -
lennys_here — 9 years ago(January 17, 2017 08:12 AM)
Except there is no evidence that the Eden story ever happened. Granted, it's psychologically effective for eliting guilt and a perceived need for forgiveness and ultimately for some kind of savior-from-sin.
No need to overthink it then.
But it has no actual explanatory power, because all natural and human evil is fully explicable by understandable means
But the worldly explanation of the origins of man do not explain how sin is so consistent in each and everyone of us. Variation of sin would occur in the humanistic model.
no deity, or sin against a deity, is necessary.
It only makes sense if there is a continuation beyond this realm.
The Lord hides his gifts in plain sight -
FirstBlood1982 — 9 years ago(January 17, 2017 07:27 AM)
Question: "Why did Jesus have to experience so much suffering?"
Answer: Isaiah 52:14 declares, Just as there were many who were appalled at HimHis appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness. Jesus suffered most severely throughout the trials, torture, and crucifixion (Matthew 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19). As horrible as His physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to the spiritual suffering He went through. Second Corinthians 5:21 says, God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus had the weight of the sins of the entire world on Him (1 John 2:2). It was sin that caused Jesus to cry out, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46). So, as brutal as Jesus' physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to His having to bear our sins and die to pay the penalty for them (Romans 5:8).
Isaiah predicts Jesus suffering in clear language: He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:3, 5). Psalm 22:14-18 is another powerful passage predicting the suffering of the Messiah: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
Why did Jesus have to suffer so badly? Some think that Jesus' physical torture was part of His punishment for our sins. To some extent, this is true. At the same time, the torture Jesus underwent speaks more of the hatred and cruelty of humanity than it does of God's punishment for sin. Satan's absolute hatred of God and Jesus was surely a part of the motivation behind the relentless torture and abuse. The suffering heaped on Jesus is the ultimate example of the hatred and rage sinful man feels toward a holy God (Romans 3:10-18).
+++by His wounds we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5+++ -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 17, 2017 11:06 AM)
Some think that Jesus' physical torture was part of His punishment for our sins.
Doesn't that line of thinking seem morally bankrupt? Our vicarious redemption through the blood sacrifice of an innocent person? That's abhorrent. -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(January 17, 2017 02:07 PM)
Doesn't that line of thinking seem morally bankrupt? Our vicarious redemption through the blood sacrifice of an innocent person? That's abhorrent.
It's not only abhorrent, it's not called for or expected in the Hebrew Bible. It's an invention of Paul and John, later to be embellished by Augustine and Anselm of Canterbury.
The Hebrew Bible never once stipulates that a bloody "atoning sacrifice of the perfect God-Man" would or should be necessary for salvation. Quite the opposite: it stipulates that Yahweh has made a covenant with Jews and Gentiles that is to last
forever
, never to be replaced. The anti-biblical notion of replacement is a foreign import of Johannine/Pauline thought.
And isn't it funny that fundamentalists continue to cite Isaiah's Servant Song as referring to Jesus - when in fact, it doesn't even refer to the Messiah. It refers to "my Son, Israel/Jacob", not to a future God-Man. Moreover, it doesn't say that the Servant must die. The entire point of the fundie soteriology is that Jesus must die for human sin, whereas Isaiah merely says that the Servant's example of righteous suffering is a continuing - not final, not fatal - example for the Gentile nations. The Suffering Servant doesn't die. Jesus did die. Therefore the Suffering Servant and the crucified Jesus are two entirely separate entities. -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 23, 2017 04:57 AM)
Some think that Jesus' physical torture was part of His punishment for our sins.
Doesn't that line of thinking seem morally bankrupt? Our vicarious redemption through the blood sacrifice of an innocent person? That's abhorrent.
maybe God could quit, and you can take his job Mamu, you've got your own ideas about how things should be.