From Catholic Answers:
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filmflaneur — 9 years ago(November 22, 2016 03:45 AM)
Christians understand God as the ultimate explanation for everything God is its ultimate explanation, at least in the sense that he created the world and allowed the event to occur as part of his providential plan.
In which case then all forms of evil are explained, ultimately, by this alleged God.
I am not irrelevant.
Arlon10 -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(November 22, 2016 05:28 AM)
In which case then all forms of evil are explained, ultimately, by this alleged God.
correct.
God (being omniscient) KNEW Satan would rebel, and bring evil into the world
God KNEW Adam and Eve, would disobey him, in the garden of Eden.
God KNEW that mankind, would be cursed with sin, and the world would be filled with evil.
But, he allowed it. He didnt cause it, or instigate it. Rather, he ALLOWED it.
Why?
As finite, created beings with limited understanding, we can't know. Maybe in Heaven, we will know. -
knight-in-black-leather — 9 years ago(November 22, 2016 06:30 PM)
Evil is explained by the absence of God's laws, just as darkness is not caused by light, but by light's absence. God bless my friend.
This is a faithful sayingJesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -
filmflaneur — 9 years ago(November 23, 2016 05:22 AM)
Natural evil, at least, is explained by God as you earlier told us. In fact in Isiah 45.7 He very kindly admits to creating it, while to make things worse elsewhere in the Bible (Rev 4.8) we further are told that He takes pleasure in everything He has created. Nice.
I am not irrelevant.
Arlon10 -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(November 23, 2016 02:01 PM)
(If any good reaches them, they say, This is from Allah, but if any evil befalls them, they say, This happened because of you. Say: All things are from Allah. What is wrong with these people that they do not understand any word?) [An-Nisa' 78]
According to Islam, all existence whether good or evil are created by GOD. To say that evil is caused by something other than GOD is to acknowledge that some other power exists that is able to create. Although GOD is good, evil is done by him only to test us. He creates and facilitates evil and those people that take this path has no one else to blame but themselves for falling for it (because they knew what was right and wrong but went ahead with evil).
http://www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?Aid=5988 -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(November 24, 2016 01:51 AM)
wrong.
- God created everything good
- Satan was created good
- Satan, in his free will, made a choice to disobey God and proclaim himself as God
- Satan was expelled from Heaven to Earth
- Adam and Eve (both created good) were tempted, tricked, by Satan, to disobey God
- The moment Adam and Eve made a choice, to disobey God they brought evil into the world
- Every descendant of Adam and Eve (the entire human race) are, as a result, born with a propensity for evil, not good
Evil, is a distortion of good.
Evil, cannot exist on its own.
Satan is the origin of evil.
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Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(November 24, 2016 03:26 AM)
- God created everything, good and bad. He in fact says this
- Verse please
- Lucifer is not Satan
- Lucifer is not Satan. And Satan still has access to heaven, as the bible states
- They were tricked by a serpent that god created, Satan was not involved
- It already existed, the garden was a safe place for everything from it
- And this is a particularly pathetic and stupid assessment of what man is
You don't read your bible
You just thump it instead
Satan isn't anything you claim
Panzer vor!
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Navaros — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 05:32 PM)
That's an extremely excellent and concise summary, marty!
I've explained those same things to atheists on this and other boards countless times too, albeit never in a very neatly-organized list format like you've made there. Kudos!
I might quote your list sometimes, but I'll always cite you as the author if I do.
Unfortunately, based on experience, I know that atheists will by and large ignore every single point on your list, and continue forever to keep repeating the same old strawmen arguments that the points on your your list have already rebutted.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Navaros — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 02:26 PM)
In fact in Isiah 45.7 He very kindly admits to creating it
No he doesn't. I've debunked that strawman on this board countless times after mamu repeated it. Why are you repeating strawman lies that have already been debunked? Is it because you have no morals?
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Winter_King — 9 years ago(November 25, 2016 07:45 AM)
When confronted with a scientifically unexplained phenomenon in the natural world, it would be a mistake to reflexively say, God must have done it; its a miracle.
So I'll take it that you now accept evolution considering that that's scientifically explained phenomenon?
Wouldst thou like the taste of butter? A pretty dress? Wouldst thou like to live deliciously? -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(November 26, 2016 04:56 AM)
When confronted with a scientifically unexplained phenomenon in the natural world
where did the "natural world" come from?
magic?
the natural world, just, decided 1 day, to create itself?
No.
God did it -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(November 26, 2016 06:41 PM)
where did the "natural world" come from?
I don't know. Why do you presume it had to come from somewhere?
God did it
Where did god come from? Whatever your answer is, if that answer is acceptable then why can't you just save a step and apply it to the natural world?
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(November 26, 2016 08:24 PM)
Where did god come from? Whatever your answer is, if that answer is acceptable then why can't you just save a step and apply it to the natural world?
Graham, this question has been asked time and time again. The buck has to stop somewhere. Believers of the Abrahamic faith only accept a GOD that has forever existed. This deity was not created nor will perish. If a god was created and can die, that god is not a GOD. The natural world imo is a created entity. How was it firstly created? Well, one can go as far back as the Big Bang and naturally as time goes by and with the help of GOD we arrive to the present time. -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 05:59 AM)
Graham, this question has been asked time and time again. The buck has to stop somewhere.
Then let's stop it with "nature" and not "god", since we have evidence of the existence of the former and not the latter.
Believers of the Abrahamic faith only accept a GOD that has forever existed.
Then I ask again : if you accept that it is possible for something to forever exist, then why not simplify a little and assume that it is nature that has forever existed? What is the need to invoke god at all?
The natural world imo is a created entity.
But is your opinion based on anything? Do you have any reason to believe that the natural world is a created thing?
And why is your opinion that the natural world is a created thing any better than my opinion that if there is a god he too must have been created by something else. I will call it "supergod".
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 07:12 AM)
And why is your opinion that the natural world is a created thing any better than my opinion that if there is a god he too must have been created by something else. I will call it "supergod".
Are you suggesting that we and the universe might be created by a deity and that deity is in turn created by a supergod? As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if that is the case (which is highly unlikely) but if it is, the deity is then not god but the supergod is GOD. It is the reason why I have always capitalize GOD so that we might not be confused on which god we are speaking of which is the one true GOD. -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 03:48 AM)
where did the "natural world" come from?
I don't know. Why do you presume it had to come from somewhere?
Everyone knows it came from somewhere. (the big bang) ie. the universe has not always existed, it had a beginning.
God did it
Where did god come from? Whatever your answer is, if that answer is acceptable then why can't you just save a step and apply it to the natural world?
God is eternal and self existant, with no beginning, and no end, thats why hes called God.
I cant apply that step, to the natural world, because things just dont create themselves magically, like DNA, human beings, the earth etc. -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 06:06 AM)
Everyone knows it came from somewhere. (the big bang) ie. the universe has not always existed, it had a beginning.
Actually there are several things wrong with that statement.
For one, the big bang theory describes conditions of the very early universe. It does not - and cannot - describe the conditions of the actual origin point itself.
For another, "the universe" is potentially a small subset of "the natural world". It is entirely possible that there were other universes before this one, are other universes prior to this one. In short, that our universe is only one small part of "nature", and the big bang but one of many big bangs which have happened and continue to happen. See for example the "brane cosmology" hypothesis.
God is eternal and self existant, with no beginning, and no end, thats why hes called God.
Nature is eternal and self existent, with no beginning, and no end, thats why its called nature.
See? Anybody can do that. And what I said is more plausible than what you said, since we both assumed that something can be eternal, we both assumed something can be self existent, with no beginning, and no end - but you assumed the existence of a deity, whereas I know nature actually does exist.
I cant apply that step, to the natural world, because things just dont create themselves magically, like DNA, human beings, the earth etc.
Not magically, no, but we know the natural processes which create those things.
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god. -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 07:46 AM)
Not magically, no, but we know the natural processes which create those things.
Which we also have a fairly large record of, from what exists today to what went extinct over the millions of years the world has existed.
I mean it's really easy to shoot this thing in the head and kill it. According to the bible timeline earth took 6000 years from beginning to this point. I'll even give it a error margin of a few million yearsor a billion if you like.
Uranium-238 has a 4.5 billion year half life after which it decays through 13 other elements, of which we also have. some others decay within minutes, while others take thousands of years and everything in between. There is no way the biblical stories come anywhere close to an actual timeline of existence based on the simple example of radioactive decay which is a constant.
Panzer vor! -
graham-167 — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 09:13 AM)
The standard response to this is that maybe Uranium decayed faster in the past.
What creationists don't generally get is that Uranium would need to have decayed at
least
million times faster to account for the difference. And radioactive decay releases energy. If it decayed a million times faster, the Uranium would release energy a million times faster.
And that would mean the Earth of the past would be composed of a horribly radioactive cloud of superheated material. Nothing could live in such an environment, not even the hardiest of bacteria.
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.