Who are you? Who? Who? Who? Who?
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marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(October 08, 2016 09:33 PM)
Considering that satan had zero play in Christ's "passion", why should he be in it?
Why Did Satan Crucify Jesus?
Satan was integral in the betrayal, arrest, torture, and execution of Jesus. During Jesus final meal with his disciples, Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus (Jn. 13:2, 27; Lk. 22:3). Revelation 12 tells us that Satan couldnt wait to get his hands on Jesus, so that he could devour him (Rev. 12:4).
The question is simple: Why?
If Jesus death ultimately brought about the defeat of Satan (1 Jn. 3:8; Col. 2:14-15), why would Satan do this? As weve already seen, Satan is a remarkably intelligent being. Why would he follow through with his plot to kill Jesus, if this would lead to his eventual demise?
Different explanations
Theologians have offered at least three different reasons for why Satan crucified Jesus:
(1) Satan the SUBMISSIVE. Those in the Reformed tradition often argue that Satan crucified Jesus, because God is sovereign and made him do it (Acts 2:23). We have no problem with God overriding Satans freewill to do such a thing. Since God is sovereign, this could very well be the case.
(2) Satan the SADIST. Since Satan is a bloodthirsty murderer (Rev. 12:4; Jn. 8:44), perhaps he simply couldnt help himself. While he knew that the crucifixion of Jesus would open up heaven for humanity, perhaps he simply couldnt resist torturing and killing the Son of God.
(3) Satan the SEIZER. This perspective fits under the notion of Christus Victor (see Defending Substitutionary Atonement). Under this view, Satan thought he could hold Jesus in death, but he underestimated the power of his resurrection (Heb. 2:14).
All three of these theories are certainly plausible. But there is another theory that has more explanatory power than all others: Satan didnt know what would happen if he crucified Jesus. This theory is espoused by my friend and mentor Dennis McCallum in his excellent book Satan and His Kingdom. We will look closely at this here.
Couldnt Satan have read the prophecies about Jesus in the OT?
Certainly the prophecies about Jesus in the OT are abundant (see Jesus and Messianic Prophecy). Satan definitely knew of these prophecies. In fact, we see Satan citing Scripture from memory in his interactions with Jesus (Mt. 4; Lk. 4). Thus the question is not whether Satan was aware of these predictions. Instead, the question is whether he understood them. Did Satan expect Jesus to come as the Suffering Servant, or was he expecting a Conquering King like everyone else (Jn. 6:15)?
No one before Jesus believed that the Messiah was going to come to die before he came to rule the Earth. We find no extrabiblical commentators who believed that Isaiah 53 referred to the death and resurrection of the Messiah. NT scholar George Ladd writes, Judaism before Christ never interpreted [Isaiah 53] as referring to the sufferings of the Messiah.[1] NT scholar D.A. Carson concurs, There does not seem to be an unambiguous pre-Christian source within Judaism that identifies the Suffering Servant of Isa. 53 with the anticipated Messiah.[2] Even critic Bart Ehrman agrees, We do not have a single Jewish text prior to the time of Jesus that interprets the passage messianically.[3]
This shouldnt surprise us. Even throughout Jesus life, the people around him did not understand the purpose of his mission on Earth.
The crowds: When Jesus told them that he would be lifted up at the Cross, the people said, We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, The Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man? (Jn. 12:34).
Peter: At the Last Supper when Jesus told the disciples that he was leaving, Peter said, Lord, where are You going? (Jn. 13:36; cf. 14:17-18)
John the Baptist: While John the Baptist was the most righteous man on Earthnext to Jesus himself (Mt. 11:11), he was still unable to fully comprehend Jesus mission. While he did call Jesus The Lamb of God who comes to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29, 36), he also was very confused over Jesus identity later in life. In fact, later on, he sent messengers to discern if Jesus was even the Messiah at all (Mt. 11:2-3).
Even though Jesus explicitly taught about his death and resurrection (Lk. 18:31-33), Luke records, The disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said (Lk. 18:34). It wasnt until after he rose from the dead that Jesus opened their minds to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:45-47). While the passages about the Suffering Servant are crystal clear after the Cross, these were mysterious before. For one, the Suffering Servant is anonymous, and he is never explicitly called the Messiah. To readers before the time of Christ, this connection was never made.
Satan is brilliant, but like unbelieving human interpreters, he would not have understood these predictions before the Cross. We believe that non-Christians can use the gra -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(October 09, 2016 12:23 AM)
I know you copy pasta'd a tl;dr here, and given your history, likely has little to nothing to do with the point raised
The whole plan from the get go was put in place and executed by God. Satan played no part in the death of Jesus, it was the plan and everyone played their part per god's design.
Panzer vor! -
Navaros — 9 years ago(October 09, 2016 08:39 AM)
Satan was integral in the betrayal, arrest, torture, and execution of Jesus.
and Satan was
also
integral in causing the Fall of Man to happen, and thus sin to enter the world, and thus death to enter the world, and thus mankind to die and go to Hell with him, and thus Satan was directly responsible for creating the situation that made Jesus need to (that is, mankind needed/needs Him, not that He needed to for His own sake) come down to earth in the first place.
Couldnt Satan have read the prophecies about Jesus in the OT?
Read them? Satan does not even need to read them. He already knew them, and every single word of the Bible, like the back of his hand.
Satan is brilliant, but like unbelieving human interpreters, he would not have understood these predictions before the Cross.
I'm not so sure about that. Satan is not an ignorant human like the people who follow him are. Satan may well have known exactly what was going on.
the Cross hasnt deterred Satan one bit. Satan knows that he is defeated, but this hasnt made him depressed or apathetic; its made him furious
Yes, Satan is furious, but I'd say he is depressed
as well
, because without the Cross, he would own everyone's souls. With the cross, he now cannot own everyone's souls and also he will have less company in Hell. But I do agree with the article that the Cross has made Satan work even harder to turn people to evil.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(October 09, 2016 03:12 PM)
and Satan was also integral in causing the Fall of Man to happen, and thus sin to enter the world, and thus death to enter the world, and thus mankind to die and go to Hell with him, and thus Satan was directly responsible for creating the situation that made Jesus need to (that is, mankind needed/needs Him, not that He needed to for His own sake) come down to earth in the first place.
Except satan was never involved in that, either.
Panzer vor! -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(October 09, 2016 03:53 PM)
Except satan was never involved in that, either.
Yeah. Funny how fundies refuse to accept scripture's "plain word" here as in this Genesis example. Satan had nothing to do with "the Fall". The Fall was a consequence of A&E's true innocence, the Serpent's wise counsels, and Yahweh's daffy incompetence. -
Navaros — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 04:20 PM)
Satan had nothing to do with "the Fall"
That is ignorance of the highest degree.
But really
you know full well
that Satan had
everything
to do with the Fall. But you love Satan and want to defend him, so that is why you lyingly claim otherwise so as to pretend he is blameless.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Navaros — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 08:15 AM)
mamu, why should I post anything for you, when no matter what I post, you will keep dishonestly repeating the same old false lie strawman arguments that you've already seen me debunk?
If you really want to have a serious discussion, then you can start by apologizing for the many, many, many times when you have repeatedly made the false claim that God said He created evil as in badness, even after you have seen me rebut that lie. And then you can promise never again to repeat that or any other strawmen lies that you've already seen me debunk.
Once you do those two things, then taking you seriously might be an option. Until/unless that happens, then posting verses for you is a waste of time.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 08:45 AM)
Can you post such a verse then?
I try to post verses contained within the Bible in the context they are provided to support what I post. There is nothing contained in Genesis to support that Satan was in the Garden as the serpent, or even possessing the serpent. It is a misconception, albeit an extremely popular one.
If God created everything, as the Bible claims, then he created evil and the means for people to do it. God himself commits acts that many good and moral people would consider questionable or downright evil in many places in the Bible. From lying and deceiving, to cursing and murdering people. God even changes his mind in the Bible, so he is clearly a flawed and imperfect being. So why wouldn't he be ultimately responsible for evil if he commits it himself? -
Navaros — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 08:56 AM)
If God created everything, as the Bible claims, then he created evil
That's false. God did not create evil. What you mean by "the means for people to do it" is unclear. God gave people the Free Will to commit evil or obey Him and hence never commit evil.
he is clearly a flawed and imperfect being.
That's false too.
he commits it himself?
That's false too.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 11:39 AM)
That's false. God did not create evil. What you mean by "the means for people to do it" is unclear. God gave people the Free Will to commit evil or obey Him and hence never commit evil.
Except god himself says he does create evil
That's false too.
god clearly demonstrates on multiple occasions he is not a perfect being
That's false too.
Hmm, story of Job, flood, destruction of soddom and gemorrah, the whole plagues upon Egypt thingGod clearly acts on people in evil ways himself
So I guess this post where you focus only on the derails you are saying you don't have anything to back up your claim about satan tempting man in Eden. Shocker
Panzer vor! -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 01:26 PM)
That's false too.
You don't think a being that gets angry, jealous, who lies and deceives, who changes his mind, who regrets his decisions, who murders innocents, etc. isn't imperfect??
How can a perfect being change his mind? The basic definition of 'perfect' is without fault or defectflawless. Are these not flaws? -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 11:16 AM)
Mamu, great post. Yeah, Satan is nowhere to be found in the Genesis account. Satan is a fallen angel - a pre-existent spirit being. Eden's serpent, on the other hand, is called a "creature" who is very "cunning" and whose habitat is the
earthly
Garden.
Moreover, angels are not classified as "creatures" in the Bible. Therefore, the serpent, a creature, cannot be a fallen angel and thus cannot be the fallen angel named Satan.
Nor is the serpent "possessed by Satan". Quite the contrary, all of its words and actions proceed only from a single source, i.e., its own self and its own nature. Nothing and no one is controlling the serpent. Had Satan been in control, Yahweh would have called out Satan and punished him. But He doesn't. Instead, He condemns and curses the serpent for the serpent's own actions, and doesn't lay responsibility for the serpent's misdeeds on Satan's shoulders.
Purely and simply: Satan does not exist - and is not active - in the Garden of Eden story.
If God created everything, as the Bible claims, then he created evil and the means for people to do it.
Yes, if God is a creator, then he is ultimately to blame for all the evils within his creation. And if God is the creator Yahweh, then as you say, he is also to blame for all the evil plans, curses, unfair judgments and punishments, and all the other nefarious actions reported of him in the Jewish Bible. He is without excuse. And so are those who covenant with him and invent false arguments to defend the indefensible. -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 01:19 PM)
Had Satan been in control, Yahweh would have called out Satan and punished him. But He doesn't.
Right. Satan is not found crawling on his belly anywhere in the Bible, rather in fact is seen as walking around and standing in some verses. So Satan is clearly not being punished there.
Why would God punish the serpent at all if Satan had anything to do with the Fall? If Satan possessed the serpent, and Satan does not get punished while the serpent does, then God is unjust. -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 01:48 PM)
If Satan possessed the serpent, and Satan does not get punished while the serpent does, then God is unjust.
Amen to that. And, as you said, the serpent was not yet a "snake" before the curse. He lost his limbs via the curse and thus, I guess, became a snake. But as you said, none of that applies to Satan, who was never in the Garden to begin with, and has no body anyway, and hence has no limbs to lose -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(October 14, 2016 06:55 AM)
Except satan was never involved in that, either.
except that, Satan was directly involved, tempting Adam and Eve, to eat from the tree, in the garden of Eden. Everyone knows that, Rumble, try google, or read the Bible.