Dogville v Manderlay
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Manderlay
meow9 — 19 years ago(December 19, 2006 08:51 PM)
I've noticed a few isolated comments here and there about how Manderlay compares to Dogville, but I wanted to devote an entire thread to it, since the only reason I decided to watch Manderlay is because of my strong feelings for Dogville.
Dogville blew me away. Completely. To me, it was totally fresh and new, and so powerful it felt like sucker punch after sucker punch after sucker punch. I told my friends that it was the most "perfect" movie I had ever seen, if that word could ever be applied to something as subjective as art. I hadn't paid much attention to either Nicole Kidman or Lars von Trier before the film but my respect for both of them has been cemented so totally that nothing now can knock it down.
When I found out that Dogville was merely the first in a trilogy, I was filled with excitement. When I learned that Manderlay dealt with slavery of blacks in America, I was somewhat disappointed for I am not a fan of that topic. But nevertheless, the sequel to Dogville had to be good, no matter the material, so I watched it.
Maybe my expectations were set up far too high, but I felt that Dogville was much better. The discomfort Manderlay inflicted upon me was not the same deep torture that Dogville had; it was the same discomfort I always experience upon being presented with the topic of racism against blacks. The minimal stage was not used to the same effect as in Dogville; the narration and the chapter titles were somehow not as devastating. And (I might be completely wrong about this) - Grace did not seem to have grown up since Dogville. Her experience in Dogville should've been life-changing and eye-opening on a very deep level, but somehow I just felt that she didn't reflect that learning. To me, she seemed even younger, even more idealistic than she had been before being enslaved and gang-raped night after night in Dogville.
Perhaps the thrust of Trier's efforts were towards something else; I found his rhetorical argument interesting and well-presented, with the plot well-supporting it. Nothing was wrong with Howard's performance, although IMHO, she did not bring nearly the same power to the screen as Kidman had. In the same way, I think Manderlay is probably a very good and powerful film in its own right, but having seen Dogville, my perspective is completely skewed.
What do you all think? -
babykoala278 — 19 years ago(December 24, 2006 10:03 AM)
Well, your "discomfort always experienced discussing racism" is probably the main reason for not enjoying mandelay, though everyone's opinion is just as valid as the next guy's
I personally thought manderlay was like dogville part 2.0, with the set more effectively used, the feel and pacing tighter. I saw it more times and more recently and would say I liked it more.
And about grace: even though she references her experiences in Dogville in the movie, I don't think Grace is meant to be the exact same character with all those experiencesI think that she is meant overall to start each movie as a blank page. -
velky-1 — 19 years ago(March 05, 2007 02:51 AM)
I do not think manderlay is dogville 2nd part. It's von trier's trilogy 2nd part, and every one of them will have the same importancy, they'll be at the same level so it will not be dogville's trilogy.
i agree with you that grace will begin each story as a blank page.
i saw manderley yester-night and i will watch it again so i yet don't know which one of them i liked more.
the last thing: The idiots, dancer in the dark and breaking the waves are the three parts of a trilogy about women that are so good in the heart that decide to give everything. Will this new trilogy continue the first one??? a sexalogy?? Grace is so good, she has no evil in her heart, nor did selma, etc.
from spainRicardo -
BeyondCase — 19 years ago(March 06, 2007 06:59 PM)
I quite agree that Grace isn
t the same person in each film. May be she is more like symbol or something like that. But in her, there needs to be something that connects 1st and 2nd Grace, and soon 3rd (at least for me). But anyway I prefer Dogville. Manderlay is OK (with some good points - roles in society, freedom, accually its a good film if I think longer about it), but not so good as Dogville.
Firstly, I think, plot is better,or Dogville`s theme is just more close to me personally. In Manderlay all is quite in one line, not SO emotional
Secondly - characters. In Dogville they seemed more developed, more close.
Finaly Dogville was more shocking, powerful overall feeling stronger. -
pddaum — 19 years ago(January 01, 2007 11:18 PM)
I liked Dogville much better. Manderlay just didn't give me that same feeling of insight. And I completely agree that Grace seemed even more naive despite her previous experiences which she even references. I don't know what would give you the impression that she is supposed to be some kind of new instance of herself, without those experiences.
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Julia-3 — 19 years ago(January 09, 2007 10:19 AM)
I agree with your assessment that the character of Grace in Manderlay indeed appears quite immature if we take into the account everything that happened in Dogville. I think it helps the movie though that Grace is played by a different actress. If it was Nicole Kidman again, then I would probably be thinking "is this the same character I saw in Dogville" - but thanks to a different face you do not ask yourself such questions. I almost want to start thinking that the director used a different actress on purpose.
I liked Dogville a lot, but I saw it a long time ago, so perhaps my expectations of the tightly connected sequel were not that high.
I would say that Manderlay is much easier to watch, more "mainstream-viewer" friendly.
I would have to note that, unfortunately, the movie said absolutely nothing new about racism and democracy. Dogville, to its credit, among other things, has the most conceptually powerful rape scene ever.
And is it me, or was the Narrator completely overbearing in Manderlay, leaving nothing to the imagination and explaining every little detail?
My overall impression of Manderlay was good. Very well made, easy to watch. Less edgy than I expected.
And I love David Bowie
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k_jodie — 19 years ago(January 24, 2007 08:40 AM)
I still haven't come to terms with how i feel about manderlay but i do know that dogville packed a lot more emotional punch for me (thanks in part, i think, to Kidman's brilliant performance).
The question of Grace's maturity or lack thereof i thought was really intresting. I see her as a synecdoche of America. Of course the story is more than just a simple allegory but it is interesting to see it as such. That Grace is not transformed inside but merely moves herself to a different place and in a different position of power is quite telling when looking at contemporary america. -
meow9 — 19 years ago(January 26, 2007 08:33 AM)
Lol, interesting take. Your comment reminds me of what one of my professors used to say about how Americans have a real problem with amnesia. They are simply in the habit of not recalling the past and make the same mistakes over and over again.
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Strausszek — 19 years ago(March 17, 2007 01:01 AM)
Well,
some
historical moments are always recalled and brought up again aren't they? Munich 1938 for instance - that's always invoked by people like Huntington, Wolfowitz and David Horowitz to show that the need to be firm and proud versus dictators is an absolute one (unfortunately this isn't always a helpful parallel).
By the way the movie is not just about the USA, it's also about von Trier's native country Denmark. In recent years there's been strong tension between natives and immigrants, in particular muslims, and Middle Eastern immigrants and refugees have been more or less reduced to social pariahs (unemployment, ghettoization, above all a semi-racist crusading spirit and heckling from the right). The story of Manderlay and Grace's attempts at benevolent reform is also about how hard it is to break this kind of "lower class syndrome" and that you can't expect people who have been trampled upon for many years to suddenly become neat citizens just because you give them a mimimum wage and a few school books. -
vorm — 19 years ago(February 19, 2007 10:29 AM)
Grace repeats her mistakes and has not learned from her experiences in Dogville. It has just made her more dead-set on proving herself right. This is supposed to represent the mistakes in foreign policy that America has repeated. Although the movie does raise some interesting points about the end of slavery in the U.S., the main point of the film, I feel, is an indictment of our foreign policy in Iraq. When you consider how closely things have played out along the lines of the events in the movie, it's pretty impressive how well Von Trier thought his argument out. Regardless, it is not as good as Dogville but equally thought-provoking.
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movieguru51 — 19 years ago(January 28, 2007 08:17 PM)
My only problem with MANDERLAY was the sameGrace
Her character would not, post Dogville, have responded to Manderlay in that manner.
Give me any other character in the same role and I'm fine with the film.
Grace has made the choices to re-join her parentage in the seat of power and retribution.
She was travelling down the road with her "gang" in tow when she came upon Manderlay.
I'll give her a short stop for curiosity but she's not spending the night.
I always set time aside to watch Lars films. Dogville has absolutely impressive.
I put it in the category of "Films Like No Others".origonals
He tackles the "Anysmalltown Anywhere" mentality and the insidious mature of nasty humans very well.
One of my long time bedside reads is Erich Fromm's ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM
philosophical discussions on why people do or don't choose freedom
I think Lars was reading my book.
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qwerty609qwerty — 18 years ago(May 04, 2007 02:19 PM)
For me, both movies deal with a religion issue. In Dogville we have the Jesus story, but with a totally different ending, where the Father (GOD) takes action. She wants to save them, but they don't want to be saved. In Manderlay the main character is like the gnostic Sophia, an unexperienced, young and proud goddes, well intentioned, but fallen (notice that she can't go back to her father, again the GOD). She is responsable for her creation ("you made us") and she has to fight against Mam's law (should you read Man'n law).
So, the movie's a related both in film technique and subject, but their are almost independent (from Grace's point of view, there are certanlly 2 different ones) -
anneof1000 — 18 years ago(May 11, 2007 04:32 PM)
I liked Dogville better as well. I think only because the film making seemed more startling perhaps?
Also, I am a big fan of Howards but Kidman is top knotch in Dogville, really her best workso, I did appreciate her performance more as well. -
Tchoutoye — 14 years ago(October 21, 2011 07:14 PM)
For me Dogville worked better because the viewer knows nothing about the Grace character and therefore it is easer to identify with her. This makes the changing of roles (from welcome guest to "slave" etc.) more compelling and the ending all the more shocking.
I had a much harder time identifying with Grace in Manderlay. Even though she may not be exactly the same Grace as in Dogville, we already have expectations about her so there is less curiosity. Furthermore she comes across more like Tom in Dogville: a know-it-all yet exacerbating do-gooder, the type of character which is always rather annoying.