Misrepresentation of Guadalcanal?
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deeveed — 14 years ago(January 10, 2012 07:20 AM)
The comparisons to Stalingrad and perhaps Kursk are valid in many respects.
Definitely and thus the homage to the foot soldiers who struggled to stave off the Japanese who mounted attacks after attacks. On the other hand, I'd wish something could have looked to the naval actions guarding Guadalcanal particularly the courageous efforts of Admirals Callaghan and Scott who in their "night action" turned back the Japanese ships in the sound off Guadalcanal. From that operation where both Admirals were killed under terrible practically point-blank fire, the Japanese would never ever take Henderson Field or "Guadalcanal" for that matter. It's a story that I would love to get its own separate treatment. I think it's high drama as the series was. -
chas437 — 14 years ago(January 10, 2012 09:08 AM)
Agreed, there are so many incredible stories to tell from WW 2 of heroism and honor. It would fantastic to see all of them get their own treament. There is a strong nostalgic movement in the US and Europe about WW 2. Let's hope for more good films and miniseries about WW 2.
I personally would love to see a film about Kursk from the Soviet or even German POV. It was unrivaled as the greatest land battle in human history. I think the budget to do justice to the battle might be cost prohibative. -
deeveed — 14 years ago(January 11, 2012 06:55 AM)
I think the budget to do justice to the battle might be cost prohibative.
Probably however there's a plus on the horizon I think where CGI will get better and better to mimic "reality" as it was. It's there I think that when producers look at WW events perhaps more of them can open up to the screen. -
daveapps-464-983170 — 11 years ago(April 24, 2014 06:48 AM)
Get a video of 'The Desperate Hours'. Granted, it is almost entirely about Halsey, but Scott and Callaghan do at least appear, and there is an extended sequence in which we hear their final moments in the Battle of Guadalcanal, choreographed to the sound of the sonar. It's probably the best part of the movie.
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daveapps-464-983170 — 10 years ago(March 08, 2016 04:10 AM)
Just read the IMDB page - it certainly sounds like the one I mean - particularly the part about starting and ending with Halsey's retirement.
It's been nearly 40 years - the title must have changed in my head at some point. And Jimmy Cagney in the lead - that I didn't remember!
What I do recall (apart from the Scott-Callaghan scene) is that the climactic scene was the death of Yamamato. That stuck in my head because it was not long since I had seen a documentary about his career. That included an interview with one of the P-38 pilots who shot him down. He felt that it was an unusual decision to intentionally target a specific enemy commander. I'm not sure about that - the British sent commandos after Rommel, and kidnapped the commander of the German garrison on Crete.
I vaguely recall that the movie made a big deal of Halsey's decision to make the interception, but that may not be too reliable if I couldn't remember the title or the star! I may see if I can find the DVD. -
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indy_go_blue44 — 14 years ago(March 09, 2012 06:13 PM)
Kudos and a thumb up (if available) to Chas and Miscreant on this thread.
I'm also an amateur historian and have read numerous books on the Pacific Theatre, which actually allowed me to enjoy this series more than I would have otherwise. Had I not read about him, I would have had no idea who John Basilone was; I know why the Marines were fighting there arses off on Edson's Ridge and what a near thing it was; as far as TP is concerned, it was a confused jumble with no context, just a relentless enemy attacking our guys.
Only 42 minute episodes? I didn't realize they were so short. They definitely could have cut those 3 minute opening credits down by half. But they really did a discredit in not giving better explanations as to what was going on. Simple script:
"On the night of September 12, 1942, the Kawaguchi Brigade had taken up positions in the jungles south of the American perimeter. The Marines held a long ridge, called "Edson's Ridge" after Lt. Col. "Red Mike" Edson whose battalion was dug in there. Around 9pm the Japanese struck." One minute of dialogue, and you have the background of the battle. -
daveapps — 13 years ago(August 24, 2012 08:01 AM)
According to the histories that I have read, the Japanese commanders believed that it was essential to win another victory over the Americans after their defeat at Midway. They still believed that the USA would negotiate a peace settlement that would leave Japan in control of South-East Asia, if the American public could be convinced that it would cost too much to retake.
For this reason, after the destruction of the Kawaguchi regiment on Guadacanal on 13-14 September 1942, the Japanese shut down their campaign in New Guinea in order to concentrate their resources on Guadalcanal. General Horii, in command of the Nankai beep only 25 miles from Port Moresby but unable to advance without supplies and reinforcements, was ordered to retreat to the Gona-Buna beachhead - because 'to defeat the Australians achieves nothing', and all available men and supplies were to be redirected to the Solomons.
The conviction that the war would be won or lost on Guadalcanal, which cost Japan 700 aircraft, two battlecruisers, one aircraft carrier, eight cruisers and 37 destroyers, would prove to be correct. The victory left the American public in no doubt that the war in the Pacific could be won, and inured them to the three costly years that it would take to win it. The psychological importance of the battle far outweighed the strategic value of the island and its airfield. -
chas437 — 13 years ago(August 24, 2012 12:56 PM)
Excellent analysis. The stategic importance of the the Island and the airfield were not that great. The fact that the Japanese poured so many resources into the Guadalcanal campaign, and esssntially "bet the farm" (pardon the cliche) on the outcome made it into a decisive stategic campaign. Surely it was a foolish stategy on the part of the Japanese.
No doubt, victory on Guadalcanal was a huge morale booster of American troops in the Pacific and on the homefront. I still think the Americans were hell bent on removing the Japanese from SE Asia, and it would have eventually happened regardless of what happened on Guadalcanal. -
jd-276 — 12 years ago(December 17, 2013 04:11 AM)
For this reason, after the destruction of the Kawaguchi regiment on Guadacanal on 13-14 September 1942, the Japanese shut down their campaign in New Guinea in order to concentrate their resources on Guadalcanal.
The Japanese were
defeated
in New Guinea. -
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daveapps-464-983170 — 10 years ago(March 06, 2016 05:58 AM)
That was later.
At the time Horii was ordered to pull back (24th September 1942), his force (mainly the infantry battalions from the 41st and 144th regiments) had been reduced from 6,000 to 3,000 men, but they had not actually lost a single battle. The Japanese attack on Milne Bay (25th August to 4th September) had been defeated of course, which may have contributed to the decision, but the primary factor in pulling back from Imita Ridge was the need to send everything they could to Guadalcanal. 15,000 Japanese reinforcements were sent to Guadalcanal between 1st and 17th October, while none were sent to New Guinea until November.
Just how many reinforcements they
could
have sent down the Kokoda track is a moot point. They were already finding it impossible to keep up supplies to Horii's force, partly due to Allied air attacks on the Wairopi bridge over the Kumusi River, but mainly because of the sheer physical limitations of carrying supplies by manpower over the mountains. The Australians had found early in the campaign that even a single battalion could not be maintained by porters. Even using air-drops, the Allies found that the maximum force they could maintain was around 4,000 men. By September, Allied air supremacy meant air-supply was not an option for the Japanese.
Without reinforcements, Horii couldn't move any further. He was facing the fresh combat veterans of 25th Brigade AIF, in a strong defensive position and supported for the first time in the campaign by artillery (2 25-pounders manhandled up the ridge.)
If he had ignored orders and held his ground at Imita, it's hard to say what would have happened. While waiting for reinforcements, his men had built an extensive network of defences which would have made life very tough for any Australian counter-attack. All these were abandoned without a shot when the Japanese withdrew.
As it was, only a few hundred of Horii's force made it back to Buna. Most of them died in the rear-guard action at Eora Creek (22-27th October) or the inexplicable stand at Oivi-Gorari (east of Kokoda) from 5-11th November. Horii himself drowned trying to cross the Kumusi. These defeats were at the hands of 25th Brigade and 2/1st battalion (16th Brigade), the same troops he had faced at Imita. On 16th November, they linked up with the US 126th Regiment at Jaure, and three days later the two-month battle to clear the beachheads began.
All of this, of course, happened in parallel with the battles fought by 1st Marines (reinforced by a regiment of the Army's Americal Division as early as 16th October) on Guadalcanal. You won't learn that from
The Pacific
. Indeed, the Marine veterans repeat the expression you read frequently in American accounts from this time - 'most of the Australian Army was in the desert fighting Rommel.' Actually, only one Australian division (the 9th) was still in North Africa by the time of the Guadalcanal landings, and they had returned to Australia by the time 1st Marines arrived there (after playing a critical role at El Alamein.)
But this series is about the Marines, so it doesn't mention the 100,000 Australian soldiers who fought in the Pacific. Or the 300,000 US Army soldiers. Or the 1 million Indian, Chinese and British soldiers fighting the Japanese in Burma (plus one US regiment.) Of course, the actual show is going to focus on the central characters. Still, Band of Brothers managed to acknowledge that the 101st weren't the only men fighting the Germans. The Pacific could have done the same. -
chas437 — 13 years ago(September 20, 2012 03:35 PM)
Well, the entire point of this post is that the open narration was far from adequate in terms of the historical details and context about the Guadalcanal Campaign. No doubt, The Pacific is about the marines on the front line, first and foremost. But I think Americans are generally pretty ignorant about history, and this series was an opportunity to better educate them about events that shaped our history.
As others have posted on this thread, way too much time is wasted on long, redundant opening credit sequence, and the actual episodes are only 43 minutes. -
adamwarlock — 13 years ago(September 20, 2012 03:51 PM)
I can't remember it so well now but I thought the narration did tell the story of the campaigns and battles well, although even then they took time for living veterans to add from their experiences which once again takes away from the big picture.
Most Americans if they could get an attention span should watch the nearly countless documentaries on WW2. They were almost non-stop on the History Channel until they went for reality shows.
My hovercraft is full of eels. -
mistamajestyk — 12 years ago(December 17, 2013 05:18 PM)
I can't remember the exact name of the documentary, but it showcased much of the color footage that was taken during the war, and it was a definite eye opener for me, at the time. It didn't shy away from the more shocking imagery, as many WW2 documentaries tend to do. (unfortunately, it added the stock sound effects to accompany the visuals, which is always annoying to me) It was also very expansive, covering both theaters.
Some of the Pacific footage was very difficult to watch. I could never imagine what it was like for those guys to actually be there in person.
"Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see." -
gb321 — 10 years ago(December 15, 2015 02:12 AM)
I definitely felt like this was one of the weaknesses of The Pacific, especially when compared to Band of Brothers. When watching the Normandy battles or Bastogne siege in Band of Brothers I had the distinct feeling that I was watching a small part of something larger. I never had this feeling in the Guadalcanal scenes. After watching the Guadalcanal scenes, my initial reaction was "That's it? Two battles? I heard Guadalcanal was much bigger than that."
I'm not sure what caused the Guadalcanal scenes to fail to imply a scope beyond what was depicted, whereas the Band of Brothers scenes (and subsequent battle scenes in The Pacific) did. I think part of it might be the almost cold open that Guadalcanal is introduced with, but there is more to it than that. I'd really like to know what it is, it's puzzling.
My film blog:
http://gabrielbruskoff.wordpress.com -
lvrepoman — 9 years ago(May 31, 2016 11:05 PM)
As far as that goes, if you are looking for omissions, think Navy, not Army. Far more sailors died defending Guadalcanal than Marines and Soldiers combined.
That said, I have no qualms about this series. It is brilliant. But someday, I hope someone makes a "Pacific" or "Band of Brothers" style series about American sailors in the Pacific.
"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."Pat Novak