The Women of Brokeback Mountain
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OldFriendOfTheChristys — 9 years ago(April 04, 2016 01:29 PM)
I wonder if he knew Jack was gay?
I think he suspected it.
It's very telling the way he says, "Jack used to say, '
Ennis Del Mar
,' he used to say; 'I'm gonna bring him up here one of these days, and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.'" -
blindvias-071407 — 9 years ago(April 09, 2016 05:24 PM)
we have no right answers for what life throws at us
The movie shows this so well. When Alma opens the door and sees Jack and Ennis embracing, that was the ultimate shock for her, perhaps the last thing she ever expected. Apparently the situation remained unspoken until after the divorce, and even then Ennis threatened to raise his hand to her when Alma wanted to unload on Ennis about the fishing trips.
Being in the closet was disastrous for Ennis. Thankfully for Alma she was strong enough to make choices and move on. Unfortunately for Jack, Ennis refused to couple with Jack for life, and eventually the people Jack settled around led to his demise.
Certainly no one deserved the pain they went through in this story. I felt most sorry for Jack's parents, but perhaps that is because of how Ang Lee set up that scene in their kitchen. They'd lost their son and the chance he might finally return home and work that ranch. -
milliemay — 9 years ago(April 10, 2016 01:52 PM)
I really felt for the women too. The focus is often on Alma and the devastating affect the relationship has had on her life but she does end up with someone else, and they appear to be quite content. There is obviously some resentment still lurking beneath the surface but she seems to be getting on with her life.
Poor Lureen on the other hand ends up alone, bitter, with all her lovely sparkle gone. Her final speech on the telephone breaks my heart. -
truetexian — 9 years ago(August 19, 2016 09:16 AM)
"Poor Lureen on the other hand ends up alone, bitter, with all her lovely sparkle gone. Her final speech on the telephone breaks my heart."-indeed.
However, there are subtle hints from the very beginning that perhaps the primary driving force in her attraction to Jack was more about her feelings toward her father than "true" love. On their first night "together" in the backseat of her dad's Thunderbird you get the impression that what she's doing is more about defying her father than pure lust for Jack. Then years later, her reaction at Thanksgiving and the satisfaction that seemed to wash over her face whenever Jack stood up to his father-n-law and defended her seems to suggest that although she realized that she and her husband might not have had the most intimate of relationships, he was still of benefit to her. -
Phydeaux50 — 9 years ago(August 19, 2016 08:27 PM)
I think it's a strong theme- Jack is submissive in the relationship from the get go, and that's what Lureen wants. In Texas 1970s I guess that'd be a rarity. He's, in the traditional tagging sense, the 'feminine aspect' of his two main relationships. Evidently the language has some catching up to do, and to replace 'feminine' with 'submissive' is, well hmmm.
But Lureen wouldn't have it any other way, and you've sited the source- an only child that butts heads with her father. Yet another aspect of the suppression of sexuality that causes an almost French farce of a relationship between Jack and Lureen. Sorry: Lureen and Jack.
All the little devils are proud of Hell. -
Lester_Burnham_Risen — 9 years ago(August 20, 2016 08:29 PM)
you get the impression that what she's doing is more about defying her father than pure lust for Jack.
I thought it would have been obvious that Lureen was desperate to give her father a grandSON SO she would assume control over the company as a type of "consort" earlier than would otherwise be the case.
Lureen was always in the fast lane and is portrayed as a very rare case of the BIG F Feminist who saw what she wanted and got it [rather than the small f examples of Lashawn and not to forget the winging Alma]
She could do as she wished with silly old Jack to her own advantage but to her credit treated him as an equal [unlike Alma] and was so single minded about becoming the millionaire we saw at the end that she had no time to delve into Jack's "exploits" - as we saw she was generally most happy for him to take holidays with Jack/Mexico and without the time/inclination to even wonder if he was queer.
http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/ -
jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 09:01 AM)
Les - why would Lureen be "desperate" to have a child? She was young, there was no reason to think she couldn't have them.
I think initially for sure, she was defying her father by dating Jack. Her father thought rodeo guys were screw ups. I'm sure it didn't hurt to give her father a grandson, but presumably Lureen was their only child, she would have inherited the family business anyway.
I do completely agree with your last paragraph that Lureen's focus was on being rich and she didn't bother delving into Jack's "exploits". -
truetexian — 9 years ago(August 22, 2016 07:38 AM)
"They really were good women". This is true. Also a good representation of the various degrees of isolation, desperation, disillusionment, anger, bewilderment, acceptance, and resolution.
Lureen went into "it" like a locomotive, headfirst/ full steam ahead. Realizing that she had an agenda of her own, she was more accepting of the state of her relationship than the othersaside from Jack's mother perhaps. We were shown her witnessing slurs against her husband by other menincluding her own father, yet never did we see her ridicule him herself. She was not truly a tragic figure. She represented disillusionment for sure, but also a wry sense of responsibility and resolution.
As for Alma, I'm not sure that, as you say, "all she wanted was a family, kids and home" though. We were shown that she also desired a social life, or whatever passed for that sort of thing in a place like that. She didn't want to stay isolated, living on the outskirts of town like they had been and she was ambitious enough to work so as to better their circumstances. Although she experienced all of the above stages of emotion, she had the hardest time with acceptance and resolution.
Junior is excluded because she was more or less still a girl.
Lashawn (Anna Faris/Randell's wife) represented disillusionment and anger. She purposefully and publicly insulted and disparaged her husband and marriage.
Cassie was just straight-up bewildered by Ennis and why her attempts to reach him had failed.
Jack's mom. She revealed an acceptance and resolution that seemed to come from a lifetime of isolation, desperation, disillusionment, and bewilderment. She represented the "old" face and reality of what many marriages meant for some women. -
Lester_Burnham_Risen — 9 years ago(August 22, 2016 05:02 PM)
Lashawn (Anna Faris/Randell's wife) represented disillusionment and anger. She purposefully and publicly insulted and disparaged her husband and marriage.
Yes we met her 8 years after small f feminism took over in 1970 so did not see her beforehand as for Lureen/Alma where we could plot their reaction to the takeover.
Funny you see disillusionent in insulting her husband as The Bible considered that as the GOAL of "Wimmins Liberation".
She was a pathetic person, like Alma a sponge on her family for no better reason than THAT was what the sisterhood demanded.
And of course she exercised her liberation sexually - with Jack as it happened.
http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/ -
truetexian — 9 years ago(August 23, 2016 08:19 AM)
To be clear, I wasn't assessing or measuring the validity of any of their emotions or reactions. I should also have added that I believe Lashawn represented resentment as well.
How is Alma a "sponge" on her family?
In your post you say: "she exercised her liberation sexuallywith Jack as it happened". Who were you referencing? Lashawn? If so, how did you arrive at that impression? -
jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 12:07 PM)
I didn't get the feeling Lashawn was angry or resentful. Nor did I take "husbands never want to dance with their wives" or "he wouldn't listen to me if he was going deaf tomorrow" as ridicule. That is just wife talk. Like a man might jokingly say "my wife spends all my money at the grocery store." No, it isn't a compliment but it isn't ridicule really. Lashawn sounded happy when she said it, not annoyed. There was no "tone" in her voice. Now my mother said only half jokingly (about my dad) "his mother did the best she could with what she had to work with." I'd say that was pretty rude. And I think we can discount pretty heavily what Lashawn says, since she talks a mile a minute AND never shuts up. Now if she said he was a lazy lump or couldn't box his way out of a paper bag, what would that be? THAT would be ridicule in my opinion. Don't you agree at least a little bit?
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truetexian — 9 years ago(September 22, 2016 10:47 PM)
Are you responding to my post? From what you've said, it's unclear. If you are, I understand your points about 'wife talk' and all. However, I never said Lashawn ridiculed her husband. Nevertheless, she certainly did. Especially whenever she told them that he's not the least bit mechanically inclined. In this part of the world, during that period of time, it would have most definitely been taken (and given) as a disparaging remark.
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jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 23, 2016 05:46 AM)
TrueTX I was responding to Lester. which they way these posts are set up, that is why I usually put the name of who I'm responding to first. To avoid confusion.
Lester said Lashawn ridiculed her husband. Most of what she said was to Jack, so that wasn't
public
ridicule. Upon further consideration, you're absolutely right about not being mechanical would be disparaging. In rural Michigan too, being manly included fixing things, carpentry all the traditionally male pursuits. -
jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 09:11 AM)
Was Lureen a good woman? She never once stood up for Jack, all she ever thought about was getting rich. She couldn't even call the school about getting their son a tutor. I'm not suggesting she was evil incarnate, but "good"? That is unsubstantiated speculation if we're going by the movie, in my opinion.
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JayHysterio — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 09:27 AM)
She was a good woman, Jack had all the issues. Why should he depend on her to stand up for him? He finally did it after years but an assured man wouldn't have put up with that abuse for years.
I'd also say it was Jack who married under false pretenses. He was obviously hitting on Ennis, Mexican prostitutes and rodeo clowns before he met Lureen. She at least was the one who showed interest first, helped him get a job with her dad's company, had their child, tried to make a normal life. Jack just couldn't cope because he not only wasn't honest with Lureen, he wasn't honest with himself or even his parents.
I will say of all the Brokeback Women she was the most complicated but I think she was all right. -
jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 09:46 AM)
Jay - I never said Lureen had to play interference every single time. But she had the opportunity when he was demonstrating the combine and her father said he was an F/U to his associate. How was Jack to defend himself when he wasn't even there? The camera deliberately focused on Lureen and MADE us notice she didn't say anything. Completely ignoring her "defending Jack" she can assert herself and say "I would appreciate you not denigrating my husband in front of ME." By not saying anything, she was letting her father know it was okay to be rude to Jack. What is he going to do? Jeopardize his job, make things difficult for his wife and possibly create a broken home for his child?
Okay,I've said this fifty times on these boards. Society as much as anyone allowed AND "required" Jack to marry Lureen. There were no options for same sex marriage. In the 60s and even now, many feel homosexuality can be cured with counseling or prayed away. Some pyschologists/pyscyhiatrists even said "homosexuality is a phase and it would go away". Yes, Lureen got him a job with her dad's company but it was also said he was the best combine salesman they had. Yes, he was the only one, but that could be interpreted "at that moment." If he wasn't really good, there would be no point to say he was the best salesman. I wish this was my idea, but elsewhere on these boards, it is said Lureen was only interested in getting rich and taking over daddy's company. She may not have been completely honest either, in marrying Jack because she could control him. She knew he had nothing, and women then (and now) often either married for monetary alliances or to improve their own situation. -
jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 11:15 AM)
Mostly I edited this for clarity but I am going to add this paragraph - you like "assured men" who don't take crap? I call BS on your post. You need to reply, not just assert. We don't have to agree and you don't have to go back and forth with me ten times, but you have kinda said whatever want including accusing me of having an agenda and that is baloney. I'm just having a discussion here. Or maybe I should say try to since you don't want to talk if you don't agree? Original post follows:
Much of what I have posted is directly to counter what you have said - eg. Lureen wasn't completely honest. How can you ignore this? (Edit - this doesn't mean I'm saying Jack was honest, he had more reason to lie and as I have said elsewhere, at that time gay was considered curable) (Again,) she KNEW he had nothing and she came from a very wealthy family. You don't think she had her pick of guys being pretty as well?
Why would she pick Jack?
I say she wanted to control him. This doesn't mean she had NO feelings for him.
Speaking of ignoring, even in your first response, you ignored that she wouldn't call the teacher, she was always at the adding machine
So if you don't want to talk now, despite this being your post and I haven't been rude to you, that is okay. But since most of what I'm talking about is undisputed history of the times or from the actual movie itself, what is my agenda? -
JayHysterio — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 03:13 PM)
I don't know what your agenda is; gaystraight but a woman haterdoesn't matter. All I read is you're blaming Lureen where she is totally blameless.
Wanting to be in control isn't dishonesty. And she never misrepresented herself from the moment she met Jack. SHE MADE THE ADVANCES. She took the initiative in the car. No one Twisted Jack's armhe knew who she was, but did she know who he was?
Now, let's look at Jacknot only was he marrying knowing that he was gay, but also that he was cheating on Lureen with Ennis and other men. Did Lureen know this before? Do you honestly think she would've married Jack had she known?
Jack was weak and dishonest. Lureen was a strong woman who made a mistake, but she was misled by Jack 100% while she didn't mislead him at all.
Might I also mention how the second Jack found out about Ennis' divorce, he was right over there ready to move to Texas with him. Didn't give a damn about his wife and kid, and couldn't wait to replace poor Alma.
Jack was a terrible person. -
jaroslaw99 — 9 years ago(September 14, 2016 06:52 PM)
I already told you my agenda - I'm having a discussion. You said she was good, I said she wasn't evil but I disagree that she was blameless. PS trying to get you just to acknowledge another POV, on THIS subject, does NOT make me a woman hater. At any time in history, but especially in 1963 when a woman took a "weak" man, she knew what she was getting. When they got married Jack never thought he would see Ennis again.
Why did she pick Jack, knowing how important money was to her and knowing he had nothing?
Did he know who she was, how her father was? I doubt any two people really know each other until they get married! Do you really think Jack is terrible for being aware that if he is honest about being gay, he may starve or be killed? If you really think that, don't bother to read any more or respond.
As I also said, society is at least 70% if not more so responsible for this situation as Jack is. VERY few people live up to standards of honesty and integrity that you outline including (most likely) you. I work a government job. I really hate some of the policies they have, but they are voted on by the legislature and many are put in place by the Feds. Can I quit after this many years with numerous health problems? No way. Society plays a part here too. People could push for better non discrimination laws, but I can't fight that one all by myself. I think there are aspects of MOST jobs that people feel are unethical. You want Jack to pay with his life but are you asking the same of everyone else?
I don't think we know Jack was dishonest (for a long time anyway) - I thought he got married after that first summer on Brokeback and he didn't see Ennis until 4 years later. Since the first time fooling around without Ennis by Jack was mentioned was 20 years later, there is no way to know how much or when he started. At one point Jack said his marriage was "normal" and much later he said "their marriage could be done on the phone." It seems unlikely that this was 100% Jack's fault. Now to Jack rushing off after Ennis got divorced - He had been dealing with a non marriage 20 years and a father in law that hated him. He had little control in his own house or at the school about his son. So in many ways he was absent and overlooked already. I also think you could make a case that a happy father part time would be better than a miserable father 100% of the time. Isn't that one big reason divorce is allowed now?
At this point, I have to wonder how old you are, since you show no mercy at all about Jack marrying a woman, knowing he had feelings for men. I wonder why you even watched this movie. You apparently have no understanding how hard it was for Gay men then. I don't know for sure about the USA, but it was less than 100 years ago in Britain that you could go to prison for LIFE for being Gay. And with hard labor. Contrast this with people who ignore safety regulations and people die on the job. Not one CEO has gone to prison in 70 years of OSHA for the death of a worker.