The Jaguar Executive wasn't that gross. Joan has done worse.
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Thomasina — 9 years ago(August 04, 2016 12:19 PM)
I was speaking more generally in reaction to the original poster's seeming lack of acknowledgment that there is any difference between having sex with a person you choose versus having sex with someone who hires you as a prostitute.
Of all people, it was Don who told her it wasn't worth it. She simply decided to take the low road.
Don didn't tell her that until after she had already done it. Until then, she had every reason to believe he was one of the ones pressuring her to do it. -
catbookss — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 03:03 AM)
interesting question, w/no knowable answer, buy would she have agreed if don had gotten to her first? on one hand, she thought all partners were on board and wanted her 2 do it even roger thanks to pete, and perhaps lane too. that hurt her. on other hand worm they dangled was very fat, juicy, life-changing one.
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VidaBoheme — 9 years ago(August 04, 2016 07:12 PM)
I know the difference, I was just saying that I personally don't see what the problem was. It wasn't forced prostitution. Joan had a choice and no one at Sterling Cooper was making her have sex. Since she made the decision to go for it, it's not the end of the world that she boinked a fat guy for a partnership. Because let's be honest - had the guy looked like William Holden, I doubt there would have been any hesitation, remorse, or bitterness on Joan's part. At the end of the day, she was a consenting adult. Was it a form of prostitution? Sure. Should prostitution be illegal or considered morally wrong between two consenting adults? No.
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kenny-164 — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 08:28 AM)
I think too much is made on this thread to make it purely about whether Joan was "forced" to sleep with the Jaguar guy. There are different levels of coercion, and that there was a form of coercion more subtle than "force" whatever force is supposed to mean here does not mean that there was no coercion.
After all there is in the law the notion of quid pro quo harassment and discrimination. Take Joan out of it for a minute. Let's say Roger had at some point told Peggy that he would make her a partner if she slept with him, and would conversely make sure she would not be a partner, might even get fired, if she did not. Sure, Peggy could say F that and walk out. But does it make any sense to say there was no real coercion?
While the Jaguar exec was not an employee of the firm, in every other respect what was offered Joan was a quid pro quo arrangement not that different from the one posited here.
Beyond that, the legal theories applicable to this kind of situation recognize that use of that sort of thing does not cause damage limited to the specific individual involved. It creates a distortion between those willing to take up the offer and others who are either unwilling or not asked.
The writers were careful to make clear that there was a clear financial incentive for the firm to in effect propose the quid pro quo arrangement. In that respect it was at least understandable what was going on. But that does not make it acceptable.
Not to digress but my recollection of the lead up to it did not include remembering anything Don said or did that indicated he was for it. Yes he might have been more opposed to it before his too late visit to Joan, and I am not here defending Don for the sake of it. I just don't remember him doing anything in support of the idea. -
satterthm — 9 years ago(August 10, 2016 01:52 PM)
Very well said. I was thinking the same thing. I think people are forgetting the power dynamics and abuse of power involved in the arrangement. It's not so simple and I personally don't think it can be reduced to just "Joan's choice."
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windkirby — 9 years ago(February 15, 2017 04:46 AM)
Your example is just not the same at all as what happened. No one told Joan that she absolutely wouldn't get partner if she didn't do the job because it was never a possibility otherwise
because she wasn't qualified to be partner.
This opened an opportunity for her she could not have gotten at a conventional route. Saying to Joan, "You'll get A if you do B" when she had no expectations for A beforehand is not the same as saying "You won't get A if you don't do B" to someone who thought they were going to get A. It was not at all like Joan couldn't have said "f it" without getting fired. She could have refused and continued working there under her previous position for just about as long as she wanted.
Now, yes, what happened to Joan
was
quid pro quo sexual harassment. But what she received she could not have gotten any other way, and there were no serious apparent consequences that would result from her refusal. Therefore, it's an offer unto itself, separated from her day-to-day job as it was and very different from your scenario.
I agree with your other points about their being further ramifications for a work environment as a whole, however, beyond how it affects one individual.
But ultimately I agree with TC. Ken lost an eye for his job, Peggy gave up her baby. This act is not singular in its terror; it is one of many unsavory aspects of the line of work depicted throughout the show. I can see it both waysJoan felt pressure and unrecognized at work, and she felt like if she didn't do something to get ahead she would have no way of getting the security she needed. On the other hand, it was indeed a choice. She was both compelled by her circumstances and acting of her own free will. The matter of choice is not always cut and dry when it comes to business and providing for one's family. It's a constant negotiation of incentives and sacrifices. -
Real_Ex_Kav — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 01:59 PM)
"I like puppies." - Don Draper
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SealedCargo — 6 years ago(October 25, 2019 11:46 AM)
we learn in the fur coat backstory that Joan is basically a hooker anyway, so what's the big deal?
The Fearmakers Blog
https://thefearmakers.blogspot.com/ -
SealedCargo — 2 years ago(September 09, 2023 04:58 AM)
she was more of a madame, that's basically what that Baird guy said
The Fearmakers Blog
https://thefearmakers.blogspot.com/