Conflict and Consequences - or lack thereof
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Hash_Slinging_Slasherr — 15 years ago(February 12, 2011 04:15 AM)
OP is awesome XD I lol'd
Good points though, after a while, I just gave myself the excuse that the disregard of paranormal disasters was Japanese tradition. But seriously, I was disappointed in the movie. -
dejan_kober — 15 years ago(February 20, 2011 05:33 AM)
I have just finished watching this animated film. And I also didn't like it. I love all other Miyazaki's films, and this one I give lowest rating of all of them.
Reason for that is exactly what was mentioned in first post of this discussion. And I understand that this is film made for kids, but good kids movie is made in way so that grown up people like them as same as kids. And I as grown up person, didn't like it.
I'll try to explain why, using "uncanny valley" as example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTAJBQSm10 - this example is related to video games, but it implies to animated films as well).
Same thing that puts some artificial characters in uncanny valley when we talk about physical appearance, applies to those characters when we talk about emotions and reactions.
If character in some animated movie is rendered as human, and it looks like human and is presented as "normal" human, as are in this film Sosuke's mother and other people from that town, then we expect from them to act as we know that people will act in similar situations. So when entire town is flooded, and people act like they are on some sort of vacation or parade, then that's not normal human behavior and it makes those characters unbelievable and we can't relate to them, even this is pure fantasy film where watter turns to fishes, fishes to humans and humans can live and breathe underwater. And when we watch those fantasy elements, then we are OK with them, because we don't have real life experience or comparison to compare it to.
But it looks totally unrealistic when we see grown up person (Sosuke's mother) who acts like it's totally normal and almost every day thing, when ocean is poring out, rising all over to top of hill where her house is, and from waves comes something that looks like human child, but with chicken legs and hands, and jumps right on her son, and all she does is just ask Sosuke if he knows her, instead of beating that thing with stick like every mother will do trying to protect her child from thing that came from sea, morphed from childlike creature in to "normal" child and jumps right on to her own child.
And after that, in middle of Biblical flood, when sea is rising, what she does? She leaves her child alone in house with thing that came from sea just some 30min ago (1h tops) and drives to check on people in elder home witch is in middle of town full of other people who can take care of them.
I don't wan't to sound cruel, but how many of you will abandon your only child in middle of that kind of flood just to go check on couple old people?
That kind of reaction from her is unrealistic, or at best irresponsible and makes her look like bad mother; especially if you add to that her driving style when her child is in her car (driving like a mad woman, sliding all over the road, almost getting in to frontal collision with truck, and driving over flooded dry dock when huge wave is coming instead of taking safer mountain road, as suggested by guys at dry dock).
And reaction of town people is also in bottom of uncanny valley; their whole town is flooded, their lives ruined and they act like is no big deal; like they are on peaceful cruise or vacation.
In mine opinion, better turn of events, that will ad more realism to whole story and make it more dramatic will be if all of them ware more devastated by flood and Ponyo realizes that she has done whole that misery and pain to people out of her recklessness and childish stupidity, and she has to make decision eider to fix all that by returning to sea, or risk more damage by stying with Sosuke. And Sosuke's test will then be struggle between love for Ponyo and fear for life of his father lost on sea, his town, house and mother. And in the end, they decide to split for better good, and as reward for responsible choice and their sacrifice for good of entire world, Ponyo's parents turn her in to human and return her to Sosuke. And we will have nice happy ending with nice moral story that will be equally understandable to kids and grown up people.
But this cartoon has no moral advice, there is no real test of their love for each other, there is no hard choices, no drama, and in the end, no real connection to any of characters.
And I will mention once again; I realize that this is film for kids, but kids movies has to entertain kids and teach them something in same time. This one doesn't teach them anything valuable. -
tedne — 15 years ago(February 24, 2011 02:16 PM)
The plot you outlined above is an adult plot. A five-year would not write a plot like that. Ponyo is not just made for little kids, it was made BY a little kid. The conflicts and consequences are the ones a 5-year-old would understand and enjoy and write. Both kids have seriously cool houses and seriously cool parents, not to mention Ponyo's 200 valkyrie sisters. A tsunami? Way cool! No school!
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HollowScar — 14 years ago(June 07, 2011 04:45 AM)
Yeah, for a Miyazaki work, this one seemed more like a Disney kinda movie. It just went in the wrong direction.
- Fish changing to be a human is ridiculous. Its never too good if you give up your identity or origins for a relationship. Its like the Little Mermaid syndrome in which the relationship was based on neediness and emotional blackmail of sorts.
- Spitting water at your father's face just to go with a boy? Seriously? Holy, this might just be too problematic for children who still dream fantasies. Often time, we don't appreciate what we have and the people that brought us here and cared for us, so a movie like this can be too egotistical.
- There are no consequences, and the whole aspect of believe in yourself is grossly exaggerated. The tsunamis, that intense stalking by someone as young as her, the breaking of rules, putting others in danger, etc. etc. without even the slightest hint of regret is another factor.
All things aside, it was a good movie for what it was, but no where near as spiritual or meaningful as Miyazaki's previous work. This one did have good animation though.
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ferraritr — 14 years ago(June 12, 2011 08:43 PM)
It's not just "the Little Mermaid syndrome", the movie is based off and inspired by the Little Mermaid.
I also felt the movie came up short, but the 'no consequences or regret' is really how a child of that age would probably think, especially one with as little exposure as Ponyo. As for losing her identityI felt it was the opposite, she was separating herself from the tons of others just like her and creating her own life, even if it wasn't the best choice. All in all Miyazaki was still able to capture the essence of childhood, but he went a little too young this time.
Stupidity isn't a virusbut it sure is spreading like one. -
random_guy85 — 14 years ago(August 02, 2011 12:03 AM)
yep and have to agree. musical score is orgasmic beyond belief, and there are great Miyazaki moments like first 4 minutes, Ponyo running on the water made of fish and Ponyo's mom being the ocean goddess was great to watch her moving around
but the story really goes nowhere and considering how adorable the characters were and how much I actually cared for them all, I would have liked for them to have a better story.
Heck is where you go to if you don't believe in Gosh -
minhal92 — 14 years ago(December 24, 2011 06:42 AM)
Mark, I find myself agreeing with your post a lot. Yes I do recognize that this is a children's movie and whatnot but the points made by you are still totally valid. This movie was missing something, I still enjoyed it quite a bit, its still well made but the plot was kind of lacking. I've watched a bunch of Miyazaki movies in the last couple of days (Spirited, Howls Moving Castle and this) and i felt this sadly had the weakest plot
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Madhaxman — 14 years ago(January 02, 2012 09:04 PM)
As far as consequences, there are none in the film. Ponyo is an unruly child who disobeys her father and proceeds to wreck the balance of nature and pull a Hurricane Katrina on a small unnamed town. Is she ever punished? No. In fact, she gets exactly what she wants: to be human and live with Sasuke.
Her Father is a over bearing and xenophobic. You must forgive the film if it believes going against him is the right thing to do.
And its not liek she intended to cause bring chaos to the world.
And what was the deal with Ponyo's dad? During the scenes in his underwater home, he seemed to be intent on annihilating all human civilization with his potions to restore an Ocean Earth, but then at the end he was wishing everyone a nice life Huh? One of the hallmarks of Miyazaki's films (and a fair amount of anime in general) is that many of the characters are shades of gray rather than pure good/evil characters, but this just seemed like lazy character development.
Because he saw how a relationship between a member of the sea world (his own daughter) and the land world was able to restore the balance that he hold so precious.- Fish changing to be a human is ridiculous. Its never too good if you give up your identity or origins for a relationship. Its like the Little Mermaid syndrome in which the relationship was based on neediness and emotional blackmail of sorts.
- Spitting water at your father's face just to go with a boy? Seriously? Holy, this might just be too problematic for children who still dream fantasies. Often time, we don't appreciate what we have and the people that brought us here and cared for us, so a movie like this can be too egotistical.
See my first point. Ponyo was beginning to grow her own identity and individuality, and her fathers response was to try and supress it. The eventual rejection of the identity put upon you by your parents in favor for the identity you choose for yourself is a natural part of growing up.
And she didn't just fall for the boy, she fell for the entire lifestyle that the land life had offered her.
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3PocketCharlie — 13 years ago(September 17, 2012 09:53 AM)
I understand all the criticism, but I think they mostly stem from our comfort with the standard story structure. There are no "exciting elements" every X number of scenes. They just take their journey and have encounters and minor struggles. We expect some sort of big conflict at the end, but it never really happens. The kids arrive and the story just ends.
But the point is not to have any big conflict, just a cute little tale.
And as far as consequences go, Ponyo does not really do anything wrong, besided defy her father's predjuices, so I don't see why she should have to face any major consequences.
All glory to the Hypnotoad -
asprettyasme — 12 years ago(January 18, 2014 06:11 PM)
Really? is this what the world has come to? Do we really have to have conflict and consequences in every movie? Isn't that a little redundant? I like that it was a good movie without too much drama. I don't understand y they don't make more movies like that. No wonder most ppl in the world are under tremendous amount of stress, every two seconds its drama, conflicts and little hope for a happy ending for everyone. I hope this changes in the future.
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memdec6 — 10 years ago(December 27, 2015 04:29 PM)
Conflict and consequences doesn't necessarily mean drama. It doesn't mean some big, dramatic battle or an evil antagonist to fight against. It means that every action a person takes has some outcome to it both good and bad or anywhere inbetween.
Ponyo spits in her father's face. In real life there would be consequences to this. (Well, for many children there would be.) The mother drives like a maniac she puts herself and her child in danger, and it's all good. She barely even seems to worry about driving her son through a tsunami or finding a magical fish-girl. The town is flooded people have lost their homes, livelihoods and probably some loved ones but everyone seems so happy. Yes, this is a children's movie. But that doesn't mean that the people had to act like they were on a picnic. They could have been visibly upset, even if the decision was made not to make a big deal out of it, since this was made for children.
So, the issue isn't that there isn't drama. It's that things happen bad things and no one seems to care or be upset. People aren't overly worried. They're not just trying to stay positive they seem to be having fun.
I really like Totoro. My daughter does, too. She sees sisters playing together and a giant, silly creature. I see the very real worry of a mother in poor health or how frightening it is when a child is missing. There is joy in the movie there are no bad guys or evil plots or anything like that. But those every day fears and worries really touched me, as a mother, and it made the movie go from just a pretty film to something special. -
toddtw — 11 years ago(July 18, 2014 10:50 PM)
Why must there be a conflict? And there is a conflict in Ponyo anyway with Fujimoto. He wants to destroy humans yet his daughter wants to become one.
Sosuke proving his unconditional love for her is what finally gives him acceptance of not only Ponyo becoming a human, but humans in general. Yes, we the audience know that Sosuke loved her from the start, but we don't know whether Fujimoto is ultimately going to accept it until the end.