Triangle: An Objective And Thorough Analysis (Spoilers)
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xalanxlp-21-263256 — 11 years ago(September 14, 2014 02:47 PM)
Thank you for this brilliant analysis of the movie. Some mind blowing research and detailing of literally everything. Been 2 hours reading and it's 3am! Absolutely amazing. Perhaps the movie would not have been as enlightening in my memory as it has now after going through all this. It's 2014 and I find it unbelievable how low this rating is and how I missed this movie in 2009. This is my first imdb post, was compelled to write this for the depth and effort you gave in for this.
10/10
to you. -
voyagerandsouthpark — 9 years ago(July 09, 2016 12:34 PM)
does anyone know where i can find a video of other jess who our jess threatens with the shotgun who later becomes mean jess? i have bought the dvd but it doesn't show that scene but i know it was shot and cut, just wondering if anyone has it or knows where to find it?
"sir, sir, i gotta check and see if you've soiled yourself, I'll get to you in a moment, sir!" -
warrior-poet — 9 years ago(July 09, 2016 10:22 PM)
I didn't realize there was a version that didn't include that scene. It's about 56 minutes in. Perhaps Spielburger may know if there's a version without the banquet hall face-off scene. Where'd you get your DVD? That scene is pretty important in my view. I'm surprised they have a version with that cut out. Sorry, I'm not much help on where to get a copy that includes that scene. I thought they all had it.
I'm something new entirely. With my own set of rules. I'm Dexter. Boo.
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voyagerandsouthpark — 9 years ago(July 10, 2016 02:29 AM)
i don't mean the scene where she gets threatened, i mean afterwards when she hides and eventually kills mean jess who she later becomes, would be a good sequel where we follow that jess, a jess that remembers a previous loop, that's one theory anyway. I know the scene was shot when she runs away after being threatened but was never shown, just wondering if theres a deleted scene somehow with that in it.
"sir, sir, i gotta check and see if you've soiled yourself, I'll get to you in a moment, sir!" -
Spielburger — 9 years ago(July 10, 2016 06:26 AM)
Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but like Warrior_Poet I was a little confused as to exactly which scene you meant.
Yes, they did film the new "loop 1" Jess running off and hiding, and it was originally included in an early cut shown to a test audience, but we only know that because Christopher Smith mentions it in his DVD commentary. I've never seen it, and I've never heard from someone who has (although they obviously exist!).
I'm also not aware of any released deleted scene, but then again the whole issue of deleted scenes is a little mysterious (e.g. the way in which the only two official deleted scenes on the R2 DVD are numbered "1" and "3").
The original line seemed to be that very few changes were made post-production, but then when you go through Smith's comments it becomes clear that quite a few alterations were made. We know a number of changes to the script were actually made
during filming
(e.g. the locket scene), so that might be where some of the confusion comes from.
From the DVD Commentary:
[Timestamp 0:54:40]
And in the script, we had a sequence here where we actually ran off with that Jess there. So the one you see running away; I used to actually go off with in the story, and we would run away with her for a while, while she ran away and hid.
Now we actually did shoot it. And we used to see her go off and hide behind the funnels at the front of the ship. And thats a classic example of what we were saying before where when we did a test screening of the audience, the audience got very Sorry; when we did a test screening of the film for an audience, they got a little confused as to which Jess they were supposed to be following. Now that is actually the point of the movie in as way; that you realize that theyre all Jesses, and that you can actually care for all of them, but we decided to cut out the fact of her running off because it was more information than we felt an audience could cope with without becoming so spun out by the film they lost interest.
Its certainly something I wouldnt mind seeing put into a longer version of the film, to see if those moments could work.
Note: for those who are interested, this section of the commentary comes immediately before Smith's explanation of "the Mean Jess" that I've transcribed in the FAQ.
"So I've got bullets, but no gun. That's quite Zen." -
voyagerandsouthpark — 9 years ago(July 10, 2016 10:18 AM)
actually there is 3 deleted scenes on the dvd its just after 1 and 3. i know the deleted scene of new jess 1 is never shown but i wonder what she does after she gets threatened, hides for a while, apparently finds greg, victor and downey cause she mentions it to victor in her next loop, then shes heard running when our jess fights jess 3 and also when jess 1 fights our jess. 1 theory is jess 1 disposes of the bodies of victor, greg and downey but not sally cause shes on the top deck, its just a big gap missing from the film and i know that at the end of the movie our jess will become the jess that gets threatened later on.
"sir, sir, i gotta check and see if you've soiled yourself, I'll get to you in a moment, sir!" -
Spielburger — 9 years ago(July 10, 2016 11:07 AM)
actually there is 3 deleted scenes on the dvd its just after 1 and 3.
What are the three deleted scenes you're referring to?
The two on my DVD are "Deleted Scene 1: JESS SAVES VICTOR" and "Deleted scene 3: DOES SALLY LOVE GREGG?". This is on my R2 (UK and RoI) DVD copy that I bought when it first came out.
What other scene(s) do you have? Which region/country is your DVD from, and when did you buy it?
I want to make it very clear here that I'm not doubting you! It's just that it's been a nightmare keeping tabs on the different releases and what they contain.
"So I've got bullets, but no gun. That's quite Zen." -
voyagerandsouthpark — 9 years ago(July 12, 2016 01:13 AM)
theres a deleted scene of greg hearing jess 2 when she leaves through the door after jess 1 and greg 1 find the bloody message on the mirror, its a different video than the other 2 deleted scenes and is named deleted scene #2
"sir, sir, i gotta check and see if you've soiled yourself, I'll get to you in a moment, sir!" -
Spielburger — 9 years ago(July 12, 2016 05:16 AM)
Interesting - thanks.
Is this on DVD or Blu-ray? And which country/Region is it on?
I've currently got
three
copies of this movie, which is pretty extreme even for me, but I'd probably consider another one if it's got something interesting and I can get hold of it fairly cheaply
"So I've got bullets, but no gun. That's quite Zen." -
warrior-poet — 9 years ago(July 12, 2016 12:59 PM)
Kind of sounds like the missing deleted scene 2 on your disc was an oops that's since been corrected? Didn't you have one that had a 1 and a 3 but oddly no 2? Maybe what he's describing is the missing 2.
I'm something new entirely. With my own set of rules. I'm Dexter. Boo.
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Spielburger — 9 years ago(July 12, 2016 03:11 PM)
Kind of sounds like the missing deleted scene 2 on your disc was an oops that's since been corrected? Didn't you have one that had a 1 and a 3 but oddly no 2? Maybe what he's describing is the missing 2.
Yeah; that's what I'm thinking. That's why in an earlier post I asked voyagerandsouthpark
when
he got his copy: I got mine as soon as it came out.
Another possibility is that it's on the Blu-ray: I've only got DVD copies
"So I've got bullets, but no gun. That's quite Zen." -
voyagerandsouthpark — 9 years ago(July 13, 2016 08:30 AM)
i got the dvd recently, not years ago, and i found the missing deleted scene because i used dvd shrink to watch the movie and any extras on it, its only a short video and doesn't add anything to the movie. I was just pointing out there are 3 deleted scenes, #1 and #3 are in 1 video and #2 is in another.
"sir, sir, i gotta check and see if you've soiled yourself, I'll get to you in a moment, sir!" -
warrior-poet — 9 years ago(July 11, 2016 01:54 PM)
Ah, okay, I get it now. The scene they shot where it follows her after she runs off. Looks like Spielburger's answered that sufficiently already, but unfortunately I don't think that footage has ever been included with anything. It's just something Smith refers to in the commentary.
I'm something new entirely. With my own set of rules. I'm Dexter. Boo.
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Vicky8675309 — 9 years ago(December 30, 2016 02:45 PM)
I'm very impressed with your series of posts on the movie Triangle. I just finished watching it last night and found it to be an excellent movie. Luckily I was unspoiled about the movie and didn't have high expectations.
I thought I understood most of your (and others) explanations but I'm still not putting it all together correctly:( Why aren't a bunch of Jesses all converging outside Jess0 or Prime Jess's house (they all go back to the pastto a point in time before Prime Jess leaves the house). At one point I thought I understood everything but then it all gets scrambled in my head.
Also I've read about Tommy being dropped off at school or going on the boat. But the more I think about it the more I think Prime Jess accidentally killed Tommy. That is the only way I an understand later versions of Jess killing Prime Jess and being so concerned about Tommy. She has to save Tommy from herself. Not from a slap but from death. I wonder if she accidentally caused his death from her abuse (manslaughter or something like that). If she wanted to save Tommy from going on the boat, she only had to prevent him from leaving the house (slash the car tires and cut the phone lines). However she kills Prime Jess (maybe Jess, all versions of her, are quick to kill) and the main logical explanation for me (at this point in time) is to save Tommy.
Also I have a question about the Jess we see dead on the road after the car accident. Jess put dead Prime Jess into a black bag (luggage) that was zipped up and put into the car trunk. How does a car crash cause the bag to unzip and lead to Prime Jess being sprawled out dead? We see Prime Jess's body (not half in/out of a bad) on the road next to her son's body.
I really enjoyed this movie and have spent a lot of time thinking about it (and your helpful and impressive postsThank you) -
warrior-poet — 9 years ago(January 18, 2017 08:37 PM)
Thanks for the feedback and kind words! I'll touch on your questions briefly. Keep in mind that the movie itself doesn't necessarily have clear answers on some of these and other questions that have popped up over the years, but logically we can puzzle out probable answers. It's definitely a superb movie and in some ways acts as a Rorschach test for all viewers who see what they want to see and who can take from it what they choose, applying through a filter of their own worldview and preconceptions, biases, etc. as they see fit (well for that matter all art can be described as that, but this movie was tailored with that aspect in mind).
Why aren't a bunch of Jesses all converging outside Jess0 or Prime Jess's house (they all go back to the pastto a point in time before Prime Jess leaves the house).
The simple answer is because everything resets, and then she loops out again. The only logical conclusion about how the loop structure is occurring is that each time Jess loops to the past it replaces her previous loop to the past, erasing it. This might happen because shes appearing at the exact same time in the exact same manner each time in a sequential manner, and then reenters the loop again. The only way the her presence wouldnt be erased is if theres a skip in the loop where Jess escapes or otherwise leaves the loop, allowing it to start over with Jess Prime (in a physical or amalgamated interpretation) driving to the harbor again (which technically speaking MUST happen in order for the loop to exist at all, something I go into great detail about in my lengthy post). For example, if Jess were to hitch a ride out of town instead of go back to the house that version of her would live on in linear time, resulting in 3 versions of Jess for a period of time (i.e. the one at the house, a.k.a. Jess Prime, looping Jess, and the escapee Jess). But it would only happen if she didnt create a paradox by killing Jess Prime, take Tommy, wreck the car, etc. and enter the loop again.
But the more I think about it the more I think Prime Jess accidentally killed Tommy. That is the only way I an understand later versions of Jess killing Prime Jess and being so concerned about Tommy. However she kills Prime Jess (maybe Jess, all versions of her, are quick to kill) and the main logical explanation for me (at this point in time) is to save Tommy
Others have posited this because in their minds it more substantially supports Jess extreme actions, but I dont agree with this conclusion. The story itself doesnt support it. Keep in mind even the first time Jess enters the loop she encounters another version of herself killing people, including trying to kill her, and then she dons the mask herself and becomes a killer because it seems to be the only way to escape the loop (something shes wrong about, but that results in her extreme actions). She then goes back home (at the time not realizing shes in the past, or at least not fully accepting it yet) to yet again see another version of herself, a version she knows used to abuse her son out of frustration with years of having to deal with his cloying condition and behavior. Shes been desensitized to killing other versions at that point, which is why she commits that seemingly extreme action. But in her mind its another version of herself that has no value as a living person, similar to a character in a game who dies and gets replaced by another life. The circumstance itself is more than enough reason for her to engage in an action that from an outside observer would appear extreme, but to her seems necessary.
How does a car crash cause the bag to unzip and lead to Prime Jess being sprawled out dead?
Simple answer: it just does. The movie shows it somehow happens, therefore it happened. Perhaps the zipper had a weak spot and it ripped open. It was quite a violent crash, after all. I find it plausible.
Hope that helped!
I'm something new entirely. With my own set of rules. I'm Dexter. Boo.
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dolores_medina — 11 years ago(August 01, 2014 04:38 PM)
I Just finished your analysis of the travail of Jess through the time displacement.
I realize that if we see the 3 dimensional spacetime as depicted by a 2 dimensional band. then her travels from the past on the left to the future on the right can be seen as a Moebius strip.
There is a twist as well as a loop so that when Jess 71, returns to the harbor, she is now Jess 74. Jess 71 was "confused" jess. jess 74 according to my understanding becomes "Mean" jess.
If I am correct she will both Give a severe beatdown to Jess 72, and receive one from Jess 76 before being tossed over the side of the ship dead or near dead to drown and die.
My Question. We know that when she is Jess 71, she interacts with Jess 69, 70, 72 and 73, before falling off the ship to become 74.
Is there any significant difference between jess 71 and Jess 69? My understanding is, that the moment that Jess 71 puts On the mask, she becomes Jess 69, and gets tossed over the side of the boat by herself.
That means that she takes turns being " Confused" and " mean" The confused is One iteration through the strip.then the " mean" is on the other side of the Moebius strip.
Or is there a difference between Jess 71, and Jess 69? Is Jess 71 really becoming Jess 67? -
warrior-poet — 11 years ago(August 04, 2014 08:50 PM)
You've got a strong grasp of it. The main thing to keep in mind is that during the span of the loop cycle we observe (even if just snippets) the pattern is very, very similar between loops, but in an alternating pattern. Theoretically, early loops could have held greater variation, although probably not by very much. But in the end, there is little difference between Jess 71 and 69, for example, both of whom are in "nice" patterns. Very minor variations could occur. We even see a couple in the film.
For example, when our" Jess hides (meaning the one we follow through the film, and who undergoes a "nice" pattern) in the kitchen and grabs a knife she then hides behind a counter for a while and the masked Jess peers in while shes still in there. However, two loops later when the next confused/nice Jess does the same thing (and when our Jess is now the masked one) she rattles the knives when taking one, which spooks her and she immediately runs off, so when our/masked Jess peers into the kitchen its empty this time.
It's reasonable to assume that other minor deviations have occurred up through the 70's section of the loop, and that further deviations might occur beyond that point. What we know for sure, however, is that since the last loop must feed back into the first loop, that whatever those deviations are they must result in what we see during the loops we observe.
Something to note is that we don't know the exact loops we see. I've estimated loops 69 through 74 based on an approximation of the number of objects in each of the piles, but it's an estimate. A close one, but it's not exact. For purposes of discussion though I think it's fine to refer to them using the labels are provided to help maintain consistency.
At any rate, you're absolutely right. She alternates between "nice" and "mean". The Jess iteration we follow in the film is "nice", but when we see her about to embark on the yacht again at the end of the film she'll be in a "mean" loop. It should also be noted that there are a lot of similarities even between "nice" and "mean" loop patterns. The further the "mean" loop goes along the more it deviates, but it starts the same and is identical for at least a good half of it.
Another item to note is that in my structure I'm having Jess transition from one Jess number to the next the moment she wakes up on the beach, i.e. is thrown into the past and loops backwards. However, this is really just a technical detail. The structure and labels could be shift to any point in the loop while maintaining the same general pattern. Meaning, at that point it's just a label to help visual and quantify things for purposes of discussion.
I'm something new entirely. With my own set of rules. I'm Dexter. Boo.