Final revisions to my Theory, based on ongoing discussions with this board (in particular, I tip my hat to the critiques
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camcody — 14 years ago(January 15, 2012 12:28 AM)
Jess dozes in the Taxi. By this point, we know Jess has been through quite a lot, and she nods off in the Taxi. When she wakes, is this the beginning of the Jess we call Confused Jess, or is this still the end of the Jess who made her clear headed decision to go back to the harbor, the one thinking pretty clear at that point? My preference, based on what she says to Victor on the pier and her boyfriend, Greg is that she is still pretty clear headed (maybe a bit groggy, weary, and regretful) about what she must do again.
Victor: She sees Victor on the pier, and does not ask, do I know you?, but asks, "do you know me?" An odd thing to say. It feels to me as if she were asking: "do you remember me too?" Victor asks her why her son isnt with her as planned? She thinks about it too long, cant say hes dead in a car accident, cant say he died at sea (if she even remembers that), her only excuse that makes sense is she lies about him being at his school on Saturday.
Greg: When Jesse boards the boat, she says to her boyfriend, Im sorry. She says it several times, he even tells her to stop apologizing (he thinks she is because shes late). I also find the "Yes we do" reply she gives Greg when he says "we don't have to do this today", very telling, as implying that she knows they have to do it that day (for her to save her son).
Later, on board the ship, when Jess has transformed into our thoroughly Confused Jess, she comes to believe her earlier lie about Tommy at school because she doesnt remember anything else. She sincerely believes, after that in my world, Tommy is waiting for me at school. (Strange way for Smith to phrase it, isnt it?) (We hear this said three times due to the loops). Truly, in her world it is true. In reality, Tommy drowned (which she doesnt and wouldnt remember). In the newer time line reality, Tommy died in the car accident (which she also by that point doesnt remember). Her world, her memory, is not the real world. Yet, Jess also remembers an overwhelming desire to get back to her son, a need to save her son (Why, if hes really safe at a school?). We dont call her Confused Jess for nothing.
There are two solid references from the movie that the Jesss on the ship know they there is an underlying and overwhelming need to save their son, though they do not seem to realize from what specifically. Remember, as a Confused Jess is being pushed overboard by a newer Confused Jess, she tells her newer self: You have to kill them, its the only way to save our son! Similarly, Mean Jess says, as she goes about her more deliberate killing, Im sorry, but I love my son. They do not remember him drowning, nor the car accident, but they do know instinctively by that point that Tommy is not safe at school, and needs saving.
Jess sleeps for 2 hours. Confused Jess is born: When she wakes from that sleep she has no memory of past events, or even of Tommys death. Why? It is either just a plot device to make the story work, or can be better explained by all Jess has just gone through by that point whiplash effects from being time-yanked out of the car accident just in time to survive, as well as being transported back in the past after being thrown and hit going overboard. Given what she has just gone through, a multitude of reasons could explain why she is so tired and suffering a short term partial amnesia upon waking up, and experiencing deja vu as the same events unfold.
We are also shown part of her dream when she wakes startled, where she sees herself washed up on the beach (as in earlier that day) but apparently sees herself dead, eyes glassy and open, crabs crawling. We did not see this. Very striking and open to interpretation (Foreshadowing for the audience, a hint of what will come, an old or warped memory of the past event, etc.)
The rest happens as we see in the movie. We follow this Confused Jess through the remainder of the movie. We see how she is truly a good person, her motivation is altruistic, always to save her friends from things she doesnt understand is happening. We see how and why she eventually wears the mask and kills her friends. Her mistaken realization after Sally dies (with all the other dead Sallys we see there), is that in order to save her friends, she must kill them all so she can prevent the next crew (and herself) from coming back on board. She detaches herself from herself, telling Greg as shes about to shoot him, Its not me. Hence the note which contains her mistaken belief of the trigger point for getting a new fresh alive crew on board, if they board, kill them all (written not by the first Jess, but one of the subsequent ones). Events throughout the loops can differ to degree, we are shown how only two loops unfold but differ, but the end result will always be the same.
From Jesss perspective, she comes to the false realization that when all of her friends are dead, a new crew comes on board. This is what she comes to believe reset -
camcody — 14 years ago(January 15, 2012 12:31 AM)
Mean Jess: The genesis of Mean Jess, the one who kills with the knife, in a much more cold-blooded and deliberate manner, is the shot gun blast to her head. This is a Confused Jess who was shot in the head, and is regaining her memory faster. She is realizing how and why she must get back to Tommy, and goes about her task deliberately. In every loop, a Confused Jess pushes a Confused Jess overboard; and a Mean Jess seems to kill a Mean Jess overboard. We are purposely shown many Jesses coming on board, none of them come on board Mean. Thus, a Confused Jess must become a Mean Jess on board the ship, and the shotgun blast seems to be the only precipitating factor.
Does every Mean Jess (who appears to be killed) as well as every Confused Jess who goes overboard transport back into the past? I am not sure it really matters. What does matter is that when a Jess goes overboard, she is transported back in time to the beach, where events unfold, a then a new Jess appears almost instantaneously.
The Marching Band/Music played/Alpha Omega: Jess (and the audience) sees and hears these things first on the ship, then on the drive heading away from the harbor. Why? This signifies that the road Jess is now traveling, the route she is taking away from the harbor to escape-was not a route she took in the Original time line. This new alternate route (alternate reality) was caused by the ship and its temporal shifting of Jess back in time. Now, She is attempting to alter the past, and in so doing is creating a paradox in the process. She is trying to do something different which cannot be permitted scientifically. These things, along this specific route, symbolize the beginning of this altered wrong past she is attempting. It will also be the end of her attempt thanks to the seagull. Alpha Omega, the beginning and the end. The ship was the beginning and the end, as was this altered reality now attempted by Jess.
Heather: sometimes a Heather is just a Heather: Heather is merely a plot device and nothing more. In sum, I have said I think Heather is there to serve as a plot devise mainly, as follows:- Her presence is a diversionary plot devise. It diverts our attention (however briefly) from the true story. We do wonder later when Heather might reappear, dont we?
- Her disappearance permits them to think (however briefly) when aboard the ship that Heather may be behind the strange things occurring on board (found keys, etc). Another plot device.
- Her disappearance & presumed death permits us to infer that, in fact, everyone is real, as opposed to being ghosts (or in purgatory, etc). (Why would only one ghost die or go missing?)
Camcody
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camcody — 14 years ago(January 15, 2012 09:48 PM)
Helenbackagain says:
the first time she encounters herself would surely be terrifying and confusing, and Jess would be distraught and angry already. She loses it, kills everyone in a fit of grief, panic and rage, and then, after the time-warped Jess wins the final fight the yacht arrives again.
It is surprising to see your comment, since this was a belief I also held onto for quite some time. I still believe it to be an entirely reasonable, although speculative, assumption. We simply do not know the detailed interaction that occurred between Original Jess and her friends on board. I do not believe the movie gives us enough evidence to truly deduce that, and so I believe we are more in the realm of speculation here. The more reasonable assumption is likely that events transpired more similar to the way we are shown in the movie. However, speculation that Original Jess cracked and killed them is a reasonable possibility, and one that also folds into with the rest of my Theory. The important plot point is that when she went overboard, she was flung to the beach into the past, and thus the new crew arrived.
Camcody -
camcody — 14 years ago(January 16, 2012 09:25 AM)
Why Jess would conclude that killing her companions is what brings back the yacht is clear enough, but her reaching that conclusion for the first time requires having killed her companions. So there's the question - why? It can't be because she's seen it happen, because the first time she kills them is, well, the first time
Again, not necessarily. Original Jess could have just observed the killings of her companions by a masked future Jess, just like our Confused Jess does. Thereafter, she could have just observed a future Jess going overboard (or pushed her overboard), and then observed a new fresh crew come aboard, just like our Confused Jess does. Thus, coming to the false realization that they come aboard when her friends die. Of course, Original Jess also must end up going overboard as well. We come down again to the chicken or the egg issue.
Original Jesss known experiences on board the ship: She would have not found her keys but been the first, and only one, to loose them. She would not have taken the 2 hour nap on the Triangle. She would not have had any experience of deja vu. She would not have found the note, or if she did, there would be only one note there written by the first future Confused/Mean Jess. She might have found the locket tied to the grate, becoming the first one to then loose it down the grate, (it being tied to the grate by a first future Confused/Mean). What events actually transpired on board we can have no way of knowing from evidence in the movie, we can only make deductions (most probable to less so) based on the evidence we have from the movie.
Most probaly what transpired: Original Jess and her friends would have encountered a future Confused Jess and/or future Mean Jess and events would have unfolded in much the same way we see happen in the movie, (with differences in degree of course). Crucially, at some point, Original Jess would have gone overboard and been transported back into the past to that beach to create the Original paradox. We cant truly know the circumstance that led to her going overboard though. Was it attempted suicide? Was she thrown over by a future Jess? Most likely, either another future Jess threw her overboard (like in the movie) or she came to the same false realization (either when seeing this time only two dead Sallys, or some other way observing a new crew come on board) that when all of her friends were dead, a new fresh crew comes on board. Then, she would have put on the same mask and garb (perhaps even left the first note and first locket), and things would have transpired like we see in the movie.
Speculation: It is also possible that something completely different happened that first time given Original Jesss state of mind (grief, anger, fear, nothing to live for, mental breakdown, etc). She snapped, did encounter another future Jess which pushed her further over the edge (pun intended), and went about killing her friends, ultimately to end up going overboard (pushed by future Jess or attempted suicide), only to find herself transported back in time on the beach. I believe this to be possible, but not probable.
Under this speculative approach, however, if she did snap and kill her friends certainly not for altruistic motives (to save them like Confused Jess), this could lend support to the gods/ punishment theorists on this board. The gods would then (at least) have a reason for punishing our Jess if she choose later to not accept her and her sons death after the car accident, by forcing her to relive (and kill) everyone of her friends deaths again and again until she choose to accept her death, and accept that she cant save her son no matter what she does. This speculative approach, in my mind, would work no matter which approach one choose to believe under this Theory.
Camcody -
warrior-poet — 14 years ago(January 16, 2012 05:01 PM)
Youre actually both right in a way, and I know its weird but theoretical science, even current quantum experimentation, allows for it. If youre up for it, check out my thread:
http://www.imdb.com/board/11187064/board/thread/179306504?d=179306504 &p=1#179306504
But to address it more simply here, Ill start by stating that Chris Smith has claimed that he specifically designed it to not have a beginning or end. Thats really all we need to know. However, although he may not have understood this concept scientifically, he's referring to a closed time-like curve, meaning from an outward observational perspective causality seems to break down, and yet within the closed loop all events are self-consistent. At first this seems counterintuitive and in conflict with everyday experience.
Time, in fact space-time, is relative. Because of this, under certain circumstances, especially like a sci-fi temporal anomaly that transports people to the past and allows them to effectively erase their own past, rewriting it with a different past (cutting the future off from its "previously established" past), or even in real-world mathematics and theoretical physics, it's quite possible to have a situation with an ambiguous beginning and end. I know it's mind-bending, but there in fact does not need to be a "first time", at least in the typical sense commonly experienced in everyday life (especially in the quantum world at extremely small scales, where "time's arrow" is no more forward than backward). There's an excellent paper on closed time-like curves that presents a variety of theories and solutions, making for some heavy yet interesting reading:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1008/1008.1127v1.pdf
To apply this to "Triangle", we must observe what we're shown, and what we're shown allows for only one conclusion: that the loops are closed. I've laid all events out in a matrix and created several example diagrams for how the loops must be occurring in order for us to witness events as they're depicted in the film. This Excel spreadsheet can be downloaded from the below link (along with a Word document that chronicles all the major events in the film, replete with time stamps):
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=e7f8784e8159d29a&sc=documents&u c=1&id=E7F8784E8159D29A%21125
I know its mindboggling, but let's think it through. Let's start by following Jess pre-loop, her very first journey wearing the dress as Camcody describes. She drives to the harbor and enters a mysterious temporal vortex manifesting in the guise of a bizarre storm (a typical Bermuda Triangle event based on established modern mythology), a place that exists outside of time, a temporal hub where varying timelines stemming from the same origin (that origin existing outside the anomaly, back in the real world that Jess is later transported to) crash together into the bizarre proceedings we see on board the Aeolus, with the exact same Jess entity interacting with herself from both future and past loops.
Now lets consider what Jess does when shes transported to that past origin. She irrevocably changes it (in this case until she gets thrown into the past the next time, at which time it resets), altering her own history, erasing her own past. As soon as she kills her former self at the house, she no longer drove to the harbor that first time. Its gone. And wallah! A closed time-like curve. The first time as she knew it is being rewritten as she lives through it. But due to the nature of the temporal anomaly (i.e. with a new and distinctly separate timeline being created each time they enter it), the effects of that first time still exist on board the Aeolus, effectively orphaned in time, without a history (which is probably the fate of the Aeolus itself), the keys being a prime example of this. To state it simply, within the temporal anomaly space-time is broken.
But outside the anomaly, her first has been replaced by a new first. Her first trip now includes killing herself, snatching up Tommy, crashing, then taking the cab to the harbor. However, if at some point in her own relative future she were to get transported to the past and choose not to interfere with her original actions (i.e. allow her original self to drive to the harbor), a new loop cycle (actually a repeat of the previous one) would begin, and shed be free to live on with a new life (or to move on into the afterlife if what were seeing is her dying state of being or a so-called purgatory environment), freed from her self-inflicted Sisyphean torment. At that time the entire cycle would merely repeat, but only from our outside perspective. From her perspective it would all be done and over with. It would be her permanent past.
As Camcody suggested in his nicely-drawn up summation of all of our discussions and musings over the past two years (of which there are a couple of very minor quibbles I have with items he presents as ironclad when in fact they are still ambiguous, albeit still possibilities, which -
whatname1234 — 14 years ago(January 23, 2012 11:17 AM)
Thank you so much for the Word and Excel files.
Just curious, anyone remembers a circle (chart?) posted in the board before showing the loops/timeline? I cannot find it now. Perhaps a link to the original thread?
Thanks in advance! -
warrior-poet — 14 years ago(January 23, 2012 11:53 AM)
You may be thinking of this:
http://imageshack.us/f/855/trianglecirkelschema.png
This was never posted on IMDB (although maybe someone referred to it at some point, I'm not sure). Although I've never scrutinized this graphic to see if it's perfectly accurate, it is obviously quite detailed and I'm sure was a lot of work. Erik Buikema can also be found on Facebook, where he posted this link on the Triangle fan page.
"I'm something new entirely. With my own set of rules. I'm Dexter. Boo."
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BigRich — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 01:13 AM)
I know its mindboggling, but let's think it through. Let's start by following Jess pre-loop, her very first journey wearing the dress as Camcody describes. She drives to the harbor and enters a mysterious temporal vortex manifesting in the guise of a bizarre storm (a typical Bermuda Triangle event based on established modern mythology), a place that exists outside of time, a temporal hub where varying timelines stemming from the same origin (that origin existing outside the anomaly, back in the real world that Jess is later transported to) crash together into the bizarre proceedings we see on board the Aeolus, with the exact same Jess entity interacting with herself from both future and past loops.
But if this theory is correct, then where is Tommy on the boat? Camcody keeps mentioning Tommy drowning, but at no point is he ever seen on the boat. Personally, I'm not buying the Tommy drowning theory. I understand your point or origin of the time rift, as explained by the storm, but not Tommy being on the sail boat even if the time rift/storm exists outside of time and can intersect with varying timelines. In all timelines, Tommy never made it to the harbor.
_
Every person that served can be called a veteran, but not every veteran can be called a Marine. -
hazardoushenry — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 02:27 AM)
"But if this theory is correct, then where is Tommy on the boat? Camcody keeps mentioning Tommy drowning, but at no point is he ever seen on the boat. Personally, I'm not buying the Tommy drowning theory. I understand your point or origin of the time rift, as explained by the storm, but not Tommy being on the sail boat even if the time rift/storm exists outside of time and can intersect with varying timelines. In all timelines, Tommy never made it to the harbor."
That's because we never see that very first trip.
The whole story is centered around Tommy (at least from Jess's point of view) and the loops perpetuate because of her desire to 'save' him.
Camcody postulates that Jess (wearing the dress) and Tommy successfully make it to the harbour on that very first trip, but Tommy is lost at sea during the storm.
It may be that this traumatic event and those that follow aboard the Aeolus is what triggers her amnesia - call it a form of denial if you wish, ie. her subconscious mind attempting to protect itself.
I've suggested that Heather might be a representation of Tommy, a mental construct that Jess's mind has created, so that a third party dies rather than her son. However this seems unlikely as we see independant interactions between Heather and the other characters.
So what is Jess attempting to save Tommy from?
I don't think she remembers the car accident happening before or knows that it's likely to happen again, or Tommy drowning at sea - because those events have been erased.
What I believe she means whe she mentions saving her son is saving him from losing his mother, remember he's not just a small child he's a small child with autism and totally dependant on her! .
Jess believes that the loop starts again when everyone except her is dead and it's therefore not unreasonable for her to think that she can go back and prevent the whole thing from happening in the first place - thereby saving Tommy and her life as she knew it prior to this day's events.
Whether or not Tommy ever made it to the harbour, or was actually dropped off at school doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because we're not shown it in the movie but it's interesting to imagine what that very first trip might have been like.
Certain time travel theories suggest that the 'effect can precede the cause' and that the very first trip is therefore identical to each successive one - but how then did the car keys find their way onto the ship?
The keys are one element that we know is different and so Jess could've worn the dress on that first trip (no Jess at window so no spilled paint) and no car accident.
We are now so many loops into the story that the very first trip could have been very different from what has become established as the 'normal' sequence of events.
So in conclusion, just because we don't see Tommy on the yacht, doesn't mean it didn't happen that first time around. -
BigRich — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 03:10 AM)
That's because we never see that very first trip.
The whole story is centered around Tommy (at least from Jess's point of view) and the loops perpetuate because of her desire to 'save' him.
I thought the storm indicated the rift, hence, the first trip.
But that's ok. i understand the point that it's her loop. The storm will always be there regardless. This sort of reminds me of my favorite ST:TNG episode, Cause and Effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cause_and_Effect_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Gen eration)
Sorry, but I'm not buying the Tommy on the boat story. You guys are digging way too deep, even for me. Occam's Razor. Hell, it could be speculated that she killed the boy and put him in the trunk at one point. I mean, I was shocked to see her hit the boy and be so angry and better yet, kill herself with a mallet and stick the body in the trunk. So, IMHO, unless it's proven that the boy made it to the boat, I'm going with the Occam's Razor solution, he never made it to the boat.
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Every person that served can be called a veteran, but not every veteran can be called a Marine. -
hazardoushenry — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 03:45 AM)
Funnily enough I was thinking of this:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Time_Squared_(episode)
Jess wanted a break from her normal routine, "just one day" I think she said at one point.
She could've meant a day without having to look after Tommy (drop him off at school), or she could've meant a day with Tommy but doing something out of the ordinary.
Jess tells Greg "my world is waiting outside of school for me to pick him up" (or words to that effect), this is the world that she wanted a break from and the world (life) that she now desperately wants to get back to.
Now if Tommy never made it to the boat or to school, presumably because of the car crash, what was Jess's incentive to continue to the harbour?
If you lost your child in a car accident, would you continue on as if nothing had happened, and then lie about it?
If Tommy died on that very first trip to the harbour, Jess wouldn't have known about the anomaly and time loops and therefore wouldn't have gone sailing in the first place, and nothing we see from that moment on would ever have happened. -
BigRich — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 11:58 PM)
I'm also reminded of this episode:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Yesterday's_Enterprise_(episode)
Now if Tommy never made it to the boat or to school, presumably because of the car crash, what was Jess's incentive to continue to the harbour?
If you lost your child in a car accident, would you continue on as if nothing had happened, and then lie about it?
If Tommy died on that very first trip to the harbour, Jess wouldn't have known about the anomaly and time loops and therefore wouldn't have gone sailing in the first place, and nothing we see from that moment on would ever have happened.
That's why I'm in the camp that she died in the car crash along with the boy because everything after this is just screwy and doesn't make any "logical" sense if it was real world. I believe she never made it to the harbor because that is why everything about the events at the harbor was strange and almost unbelievable. No wind, strange storm, capsizing, Heather disappears presumably drowned, a mysterious 1932 cruise liner appears that is called Aeolus (I won't go into meaning of this name an the Greek story), food on the table, next people dying off one by one, seeing herself and friends arrive, rotten food, these people getting killed, the numerous lockets, numerous dead Sallies This was all from a ghosts point of view.
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Every person that served can be called a veteran, but not every veteran can be called a Marine. -
Spielburger — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 01:51 PM)
Sorry, but I'm not buying the Tommy on the boat story. You guys are digging way too deep, even for me. Occam's Razor.
Hell, it could be speculated that she killed the boy and put him in the trunk at one point.
I mean, I was shocked to see her hit the boy and be so angry and better yet, kill herself with a mallet and stick the body in the trunk. So, IMHO, unless it's proven that the boy made it to the boat, I'm going with the Occam's Razor solution, he never made it to the boat.
Heheh: one or two over the years
have
suggested that Jess kills Tommy
Although I understand the thinking behind it, I've never bought the idea that Tommy makes it on board the Triangle either. Tommy dies in the car crash - the
original
car crash; Jess either also dies, or is in a coma. This is why the crash scene is so central, with so much imagery from the Aeolus coming together.
The "Tommy drowns" theory comes from an attempt to make everything fit neatly, but the thing is it's not really meant to. From what we know of Chris Smith's intentions, he had a central concept and then deliberately "relaxed" it around the edges to allow multiple readings or interpretations.
Tommy drowning makes sense in the context of the "Bermuda Triangle" reading, which is fine because this is the one of the three main interpretations that's probably atracted the least interest and had previously appeared the least satisfying. However, there
are
other - arguably simpler - ways of explaining things. In the "Purgatory/Limbo" or "Schizophrenia/Psychosis" readings, a lot of practical issues such as the keys just fall out.
I think we have to keep in mind what Smith refers to as the film's "emotional resonance", in that "it's about a mother who wants to try and change the way she was". Tommy dying on board the Aeolus doesn't really make sense in that context; having him die in an accident that Jess is responsible for because she couldn't stop snapping at him
does -
BigRich — 14 years ago(February 05, 2012 11:38 PM)
Although I understand the thinking behind it, I've never bought the idea that Tommy makes it on board the Triangle either. Tommy dies in the car crash - the original car crash; Jess either also dies, or is in a coma. This is why the crash scene is so central, with so much imagery from the Aeolus coming together.
I think we have to keep in mind what Smith refers to as the film's "emotional resonance", in that "it's about a mother who wants to try and change the way she was". Tommy dying on board the Aeolus doesn't really make sense in that context; having him die in an accident that Jess is responsible for because she couldn't stop snapping at him does
Yes, I concur. I can grasp the concept of the loop, multi-verses, etc. but something I haven't seen explained (probably because all the posts have been deleted) is this old cruise ship that appears out of nowhere. Yep, like you said, all the Aeolus stuff now makes sense seeing where it may have "originated" from. The logo of the marching band, the marching band playing Anchor's Away she was dead and her penance was to relive this day over and over again. Hell, the Jess laying on the ground with her eyes open and blood on her face was still wearing the flower dress we seen at the beginning of the movie that "first Jess" stuffs it in the black bag and places the bag in the trunk.
As a comparison, I've heard it said (by my sister) that in the movie Groundhog's Day, Bill Murray's character died - perhaps when he took the cold shower it shocked him so much that he had a heart attack and died, but we see from the point of view that he carried on the rest of the day as if he was still alive, but he wasn't. He was stuck in that loop until he could find the cause of what kept him in that loop. I forgot exactly what it was, but he pretty much had to change his ways and also accept something about himself or care more about something other than himself, in order for him to "pass on", which from our point of view, it looked like he made it to the next day. Sure, if this was the real plot of the movie, it would probably be less of a comedy.
BTW, I answered the post below before this one. Multiverse and parallel universes may be an answer, but her being dead makes more sense. Death unto itself is probably just another parallel universe.
_
Every person that served can be called a veteran, but not every veteran can be called a Marine.
